Is 23# enough lift?

[Altamira]

Looking at a used Hollis Ride w/23# bladder to put my newly certified Jr. OW 11 year old grandson in so I don't have to buy him a new bcd every 3-4 years, and would also want to use it myself when not diving with him. However, I am doubtful that 23# of lift would work for me, so I would appreciate hearing from the SB experts on bp/ws. I dive recreational only in water temps above 70 degrees. I weight 196#, use 3mil full wetsuit with beanie, sometimes a 5mil depending on temp, use 16# of lead with 3mil and 24# for 5mil suit. Regs are Scubapro, and with the computer, probably weighs @3#. Am I correct in assuming that the 23# lift bladder on this particular Hollis Ride would not be enough lift for me. I have looked at the lift calculators on SB, and if I am reading them correctly, 23# won't hack it for me with the type of diving I do. Thoughts please.

 

[CT Sean]

It's plenty with a 3mm as long as you aren't using very large capacity tanks and you aren't planning to carry your lead on the BC (as in integrated weight). It's likely even fine for the 5mm with the same caveats - though your planned depths start to become a concern as the loss of buoyancy due to suit compression is one (of the two) things that the BC is actually compensating for (the other being the gas in your cylinder). This all assumes you are properly weighted to begin with.

I personally use a "mere" 25 lb of lift for local diving with a 7mm wetsuit HOWEVER, I never dive very deep - so I don't need to worry about losing much suit buoyancy.

 

[Jim Lapenta]

Are you sure you need that much weight with a 3 mil? And a 5 mil? When was the last time you did a proper weight check with just your exposure suit and no other gear? How much inherent buoyancy does your current BC have? With an al 80 and 3 mil using an aluminum plate I need 8 lbs, with a 5 mil 12. I'm 5'8" about 170 or so. With a steel plate I take off 6 lbs of lead. And that's using a 23 lb wing. The wing only needs to float your rig and based on the lead you carry now I'd agree that 23 is not big enough. For your grandson it'd be fine. But before you choose a wing that both of you can use I'd hop in the pool and do some accurate weight requirement experiments.

 

[TSandM]

Are you sure you are correctly weighted? 16 lbs with a 3 mil suit seems awfully heavy. With an aluminum 80 and a five pound backplate, I need 2 lbs with a 3 mil suit to be perfectly comfortable. Even if you are using a BC that's 3 lbs positive, that gets me to 11 pounds (5 for the backplate, the 2 I use, and the 3 to sink your BC). It takes a lot of 3 mil neoprene to add up to those other five pounds, I would think.

 

[koozemani]

Are you sure you need that much weight with a 3 mil? And a 5 mil? When was the last time you did a proper weight check with just your exposure suit and no other gear? How much inherent buoyancy does your current BC have? With an al 80 and 3 mil using an aluminum plate I need 8 lbs, with a 5 mil 12. I'm 5'8" about 170 or so. With a steel plate I take off 6 lbs of lead. And that's using a 23 lb wing. The wing only needs to float your rig and based on the lead you carry now I'd agree that 23 is not big enough. For your grandson it'd be fine. But before you choose a wing that both of you can use I'd hop in the pool and do some accurate weight requirement experiments.

i agree that the amount of weight seems excessive. I dive a 20# wing, and even when wearing a 5mm with a 3mm vest I've never needed the full lift capacity of my wing.

with a 3mm, I'll add 4# to a 6# plate.

 

[Altamira]

Yes, I have done weight checks very frequently, in salt water and in the pool. I needed 16# (could probably get by with 15) in saltwater, 10# in the pool, because I have a large lung capacity and also used 5mm hard soled shoes, a Sherwood Avid BC, 2mil beanie (hair challenged) and slightly buoyant SP Twin Jets with spring straps. With that configuration, I can hover at 15-20' without moving more than a foot up or down, which is OK by me for the amount of diving I do as a recreational diver. Almost every DM I have dived with questioned the weight until they saw me in the water. Not one DM suggested I take off more weight during the surface interval. Now I have 3mm short top hard sole boots and Apollo Bio fins, so I am sure I can peel off another pound or two, especially with the Apollos. If I could get rid of the love handles around my mid section, I could probably get rid of another couple of pounds, but that has not is not happening very fast, so I have to deal with the body I have right now. If the Hollis Ride I am looking at was a 32# rig, I would not be concerned, but I don't want to spend money on something that is not going to be what I need (been there on more than one occasion). I am thinking that 23# rig is going to be one of those borderline things, and with safety equipment, borderline is not going to be a player.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

One of the things to consider is how much "personal" buoyancy you have, and also the size of your wetsuit effects overall buoyancy. You will not lose your personal buoyancy at depth (sadly, my fat is still there no matter how deep I dive ), but you will lose a good portion of your wetsuit's buoyancy at depth.

For what it is worth: I'm a large guy, 6'5", 260 lbs., wear a XXXL 3m wetsuit which is a bit loose around the middle, but I needed that size to accommodate my height and shoulder size (my next wetsuit will be custom made!!).

I need 18 lbs of ballast to be correctly weighted.

About 5-6 lbs of my buoyancy is "bioprene" (fat) and is not lost at depth.

Best wishes.

 

[Altamira]

So, based on what I have described as previous gear/weight requirements, would I be safe in getting a 23# Hollis or 24# Zeagle Express Tech or should I upgrade to something with 30-37# of lift? I don't want to spend $400-500 and then go oops because a 23-24# rig won't keep my head out of the water, nor do I want to go oops, a 30-37# rig is way overkill for me. I know the smaller rigs will be fine for my grandson, but I want to be able to use the thing myself as I will be diving a lot more frequently without him than with him.

 

[CT Sean]

If that truly is your correct weighting and you are carrying most or all of it on a belt then 23 lbs is plenty. My wife also uses about 16 lbs with a 3mm suit - maybe it's a 3.5, and we've weight checked the heck out of her.

Figure with an AL 80 (or any other 80), if you are perfectly weighted, you should enter the water with 5 lb of air in your BC (since the air in the tank weighs 5 lbs). The only thing left that needs compensation is suit compression and a 3mm suit just doesn't have much to lose - maybe a couple pounds - I know my 3/2 suit is barely positive at all (I need 2 lbs with a AL plate). Even if you suit has 10 lb of positive buoyancy and you lost ALL of it (not even sure that's possible) that's only 15 lbs that needs compensation.

 

[LeadTurn_SD]

So, based on what I have described as previous gear/weight requirements, would I be safe in getting a 23# Hollis or 24# Zeagle Express Tech or should I upgrade to something with 30-37# of lift? I don't want to spend $400-500 and then go oops because a 23-24# rig won't keep my head out of the water, nor do I want to go oops, a 30-37# rig is way overkill for me. I know the smaller rigs will be fine for my grandson, but I want to be able to use the thing myself as I will be diving a lot more frequently without him than with him.

1.) To answer that question accurately, you must determine the buoyancy of your exposure suit. Period. The BC is compensating for the buoyancy your exposure suit loses.

2.) The BC must also be able to float the rig on the surface without your floaty-self in it. So that means, with 16 lbs. of lead + 5 lbs of air + 2 lbs of regulator = 23lbs is needed to float your rig if you take it off on the surface.... so by that test, you either need to wear a good part of your ballast on a weight belt, or get a larger-lift BC.

Best wishes