Is 100 dives enough for an instructor?

[KeyLargoBrent]

PADI currently requires only 60 logged dives to begin instructor training... 100 to begin teaching. Bear in mind that each instructor candidate is individually evaluated by an instructor examiner prior to certification. This is where the supposed "weeding out" of unprepared candidates takes place.

Second...

I would challenge ANYONE, regardless of experience/number of dives, to control six (much less eight) divers at once in the open water. The catch... I get to choose and brief the divers!

Have fun, dive often, and never stop learning!

 

[Epinephelus]

KeyLargoBrent once bubbled...
I would challenge ANYONE, regardless of experience/number of dives, to control six (much less eight) divers at once in the open water. The catch... I get to choose and brief the divers!

Under those circumstances I doubt anyone could control two!
E. itajara

 

[Popeye]

Ronmedic once bubbled...





I honestly would re-consider before yopu decide to become an instructor. I had over 2500 logged dives before getting my instructor training and many a time problems that have arisen during classes or talking to former students, my experience has provided me with the solution to the problems. You could have a serious respect problem from your students and I honestly would never take a class from someone with only 100 logged dives. All that shows me is you met the requirements for the agency and also spent the majority of your dive time accompanied by an instructor in classes. How many wreck penetrations have you done? how many deep dives? How much leading of groups of divers have you done? All must be considered because the book won't teach you everything

Ronmedic, do you think wreck penetration and deco experience is essential to teach OW?

Don't the continually declining incident rates (per capita) indicate the (arbitrary) 100 dive benchmark for instructor training is sufficiant?

I would never disagree that more dives are better, but any arbitrary number will never represent actual competence.

Would 250 dives over ten years imply more competence than 100 dives over 90 days?

I'd say if we need to do anything, it would be a more thorough review of established instructors.

 

[wetman]

One of the things i like about being around guys with lots and lots of dives is the fact that they have little "gems" of knowledge that are absolutely priceless and not in any book but come from people who have been exposed to others and have lots of information handed down to them - in other words, guys with tons of experience. That kind of thing can help your diving incredibly. In the absense of other experienced divers to dive with after the completion of a course, an instructor with that kind of knowledge could be worth their weight in gold.

steve

 

[IndyScott]

Time diving over number of Dives!!!

Should it be the number of hours diving insted of the number of dives?
You can acheive a lot of dives with short times.

Scott :think: :ears:

 

[Amanda]

I agree that the time spent diving is far more important, and I agree it all depends on the person. I also agree divers with tons of experience have those gems you were talking about.

However, many of the "2500+ divers" I have met are kind of used to diving, in a rather negative way. I mean, divers with 50 - 400 dives are still curious, still eager to learn. The majority of the divers I have met with thousands and thousands of dives in their logbooks, were pretty closed-minded, because of their experience.

Even with tons of dives, it all depends on the person. I've seen an instructor telling a diver not to take his snorkel... for a drift dive...

 

[Walter]

I doubt anyone is ready to teach diving with 100 dives. Looking back on my experience, I had a goal to start teaching as soon as possible. I'm not considered slow in most circles, but I am thorough. I made sure I was ready before moving on to the next level. I began an internship on a charter boat to become a divemaster with 61 dives. The internship was critical in giving me the necessary experience to be an effective divemaster. Experience as a DM was critical in producing a fast learning curve. In a side note, most DM's are not truly DM's, but are really AI's. A DM's job is safety for dive operations. A DM's primary job is not assisting with classes. I picked up my AI certification with 164 dives and my instructor ticket with 225 dives. I felt like I moved as quickly as possible and still be ready to do a good job. I also feel that the experience as a DM on a charter boat was what enabled me to get ready as quickly as I did. Without that experience (which few instructor candidates have), I would have needed twice as many dives to get ready.

KeyLargoBrent,

"This is where the supposed "weeding out" of unprepared candidates takes place."

Then why are most instructors incompetent?

 

[o2scuba]

Walter once bubbled...
.

"Then why are most instructors incompetent? [/B]

"



That's a pretty strong statement. I've been reading this thread attempting to understand the thoughts of all the individuals.


"general" statements like this take all the credibility out of your post. This statement implies that the world has somehow accepted and agreed that "most instructors are incompetent".

I suspect that there may be a higher number of less qualified instructors in YOUR area. Perhaps due to the number of "instructor factories" there.

Would it be fair of me to then say, "there are no competant instructors in Florida"?

or, "Florida is where instructors who can't get real jobs work"

you decide.

In my opinion, the number of dives is pretty irrelevent here. PADI requires that candidates have at least 100 dives under their belt, true. However this is mainly to ensure that persons are comfortable in the water themselves before taking on the stringent training involved with the instructor rating. The diving experience has nothing to do with Confined water training techniques, Classroom presentation formats or open water training. Also remember that one must first be a Divemaster. Simply jumping in your local quarry 100 times has nothing to do with it.

A Divemaster has already undergone training for many important skills.

Just as "open water" class qualifies one to "learn to dive"

IMO, the "OWSI" rating qualifies one to "learn to teach diving" I don't think I would have been confident teaching rescue or DM class the day after becoming an instructor (although I was rated to do so). However, I was very confident in my abilities as an open water instructor.

I beleive that many of these so called "incompetent" instructors, are those who attempted to go out as independants immediately rather than gain experience "team teaching" or working with a quality LDC. Many instructors dont go any further than the IE. That is they stop their education at the intro instructor level. Statistics show that these entry level instructors teach mainly resort, and open water classes and burn-out completly on teaching within two years.

I would argue that someone with lets say 400, 500 or more dives would be more difficult to train as an instructor. That many dives prior to their last training usually takes its toll by allowing the diver to pick up bad habits. Now the training facility has to take them a step backwards in order to fix all the bad habits before getting on with training good diving habits. instructors are expected to show "role model behavior". That is practice what you preach, so to speak. (for example: I am quite capable of "self-donning" my equipment. However, as we do not recommend new divers try it, I never do in front of students.)

The more dives one has, the more comfort they have. Sure, having a lot of Caribbean dives may make you better at finding Octopus, morays and other creatures-thease are helpful skills for a Divemaster. But this has no bearing on what will be tought in the IDC.

This is a tricky subject to discuss on this board as many people are not instructors themselves. It would be a challenge for anyone to discuss this subject in detail without the knoledge of what is actually taught/learned in the IDC.

Bear in mind also the quality of education. I have met people with over 1000 dives who I would not want to be even on the same boat with.

It's all relative...


Andrew

 

[Walter]

Andrew,

Yes. It is a strong statement. Of course it is my opinion, but it is an opinion formed after watching incompetence in this industry for years. These instructors are everywhere. I've seen them from all parts of the country and from other countries. MY area is an area which draws instructors from many areas, so I get the opportunity to watch incompetent instructors from many areas.

"Would it be fair of me to then say, 'there are no competant instructors in Florida'?

or, 'Florida is where instructors who can't get real jobs work'"

No. Those would be absolutes and absolutes are rarely correct. It would be fair and, in my opinion, correct to say, "Most instructors in Florida (or just about any place else) are incompetent."

There are excellent instructors teaching diving in many agencies and in most parts of the world. The problem is, they are pretty hard to find. There are some excellent instructors on this board, Mike Ferrara and Ber Rabbit are two such excellent instructors.

"A Divemaster has already undergone training for many important skills."

Most divemaster courses leave out much of what should be included. A divemaster course should include an internship working on a charter operation, not assisting with classes. Assisting with classes should be part of the internship for the AI course.

"Just as 'open water' class qualifies one to 'learn to dive'"

Where did you pick up such an ridiculous idea? You are learning to dive from the moment your open water course begins. If successfully completed, the open water course qualifies you to dive unsupervised. I agree we should all strive to continue to learn and to practice skills, but when you get that c-card, you should already know how to dive. Too many incompetent instructors do not turn out graduates who actually know how to dive.

"IMO, the "OWSI" rating qualifies one to 'learn to teach diving'"

If this is the attitude of those certifying instructors, then I know how we get all the incompetence in dive instruction. When I was actively certifying instructors, I failed anyone who wasn't up to speed. There's a time to gain the skills necessary to teach. That time is before instructor certification. You should be learning how to teach as an AI. Learning to teach while training new divers is an incredibly stupid approach.

 

[o2scuba]

Walter once bubbled...
Andrew,

"Yes. It is a strong statement. Of course it is my opinion, but it is an opinion formed after watching incompetence in this industry for years. These instructors are everywhere. I've seen them from all parts of the country and from other countries. MY area is an area which draws instructors from many areas, so I get the opportunity to watch incompetent instructors from many areas."

Me too, I've travelled around the world, worked with thousands of divers, and pros over the years. but that does not qualify me or you to make such statements having nothing but your own experience to base it on. --"Most instructors are incompetant" Does this include the ones that you trained?
I wholeheartedly agree that there are many "incopetant Instructors" in the world. This is very beneficial for me. It keeps people returning for more quality instruction after they have experienced "less than quality".

I encourage the advertising of the fact that all instructors are not somehow equal or "clones" so to speak. If there is any hope for the quality trainers in the industry, we need to support the idea that quality still exists, for those who look.

"Most divemaster courses leave out much of what should be included."

There you go again. How can you make such a statement based on your experience. As you have never visited one of my classes, I fail to see how you could accurately judge me. What's that, you havent evaluated the performance of several thousand others besides me.
Fact is I would put my money behind any of my DMs to challenge the skills of many OWSI's trained by your Florida meat factories.

You are quick to support your friends on this board of being some of the only competant instructors in the world. I don't doubt their qualifications, but what is that opinion based on?

"Just as 'open water' class qualifies one to 'learn to dive'"

Where did you pick up such an ridiculous idea?

I didn't. I was quoting someone from another post. I do feel there is some truth to this statement however. Are you suggesting that a newly certified diver is ready to go to 130 feet, penetrate wrecks, nitrox, night dive? Of course not. Additional training is needed. A new open water diver has learned the basics of how to blow bubbles under water as well as the basic safety skills involved in diving.

"IMO, the "OWSI" rating qualifies one to 'learn to teach diving'"

"If this is the attitude of those certifying instructors, then I know how we get all the incompetence in dive instruction. When I was actively certifying instructors, I failed anyone who wasn't up to speed. "

I don't know much about whatever agency you worked for. In a PADI program, Candidates attend an IDC and then, are evaluated at the IE. The trainer does not have the option of passing or failing anyone. That determination is made by PADI evaluators. I'm sure you can appreciate the nessessity of doing it this way, that's a whole other point right now.

There's a time to gain the skills necessary to teach. That time is before instructor certification. You should be learning how to teach as an AI.

"Learning to teach while training new divers is an incredibly stupid approach."

Earth to walter,? that was my whole point! People who think they have learned it all as a new owsi have a short life span in the industry (IMO)

I think we agree on a lot of this, but if you expect others to respect or value your statements you need to avoid making leading statements and specify directly which areas are based on your opinion. Not sure if you are misinterperetting my words of if perhaps I was not clear in my meaning. WHile the owsi has been trained to teach using a particular style, they are limited in which programs to teach.

There has been a lot of discussion about instructor experience (the "100 dives enough" thread). Agencies such as PADI are willing to grant the Instructor rating (for specialty courses) simply if the applicant states that they have done more than 20 dives in that particular aspect of diving. I do not agree with this. This (IMO) is one of the contributing factors to the existance of so many "incompetant Instructors"

Thank you for correcting the last one by adding " of course this is my opinion"

Your response seemed to me to be a little hostile and "stand-offish". Are you insulted that someone else has an opinion to add? Perhaps a "Walter only" thread would be a better place to post your thoughts.


I don't think you would call me "stupid" if you were within arms reach. Matter of fact those kind of statements are usually made by persons with serious insecurity complexes, large egos and narrow minds.

I don't believe lashing out with generalizations is fair. On a recent Caribbean trip, I overheard an Instructor tell someone, "all the divers who trained in the USA suck" This was the same guy who is in charge of the pier, dive boats, training and general management. Same one who pushes his staff to complete the open water program in less than 3 days(giving students their books on the first day), PADI SCUBA Diver Course in just one day. A perfect example of ignorance.


Andrew