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Maybe we could drop a little of the hostility here? seems like your post could use an edit or two.
WW
WW
Is 100 dives enough for an instructor?
- Thread starter wazza
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Not meant to be hostile. But I am sure you respect my desire to defend myself after being called "stupid" by one of your regulators.
The oversized font was accidental.
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The "arm's reach" comment was a bit on the hostile side
Andrew,
First, I never called you stupid. Everything I said, I will say within arm's length of you or anyone else. Your statement sounds very much like a threat, but I'll assume it was not meant in that manner. I attacked what, in my opinion, is a very dangerous approach. I did not attack you or anyone else. You are welcome to accept it as intended or to take it personally. The choice is entirely yours. I stated that putting someone's life in the hands of a person who is unprepared for that responsibility is "an incredibly stupid approach." I certainly would not want anyone I care about to take a dive class from someone who does not know how to teach. Your statement, "the 'OWSI' rating qualifies one to 'learn to teach diving,'" indicates a certified instructor who does not know how to teach. No one should ever be certified to teach unless they know how to teach. Unfortunately, it does happen all too frequently.
"Thank you for correcting the last one by adding ' of course this is my opinion'"
It was not a correction. I was merely pointing out something you apparently missed, value statements are opinions. I rarely state the obvious.
"Your response seemed to me to be a little hostile"
Not at all. While I am not hostile, I do not like it when incompetence endangers the lives of others. I feel strongly on this topic and I will not pretend otherwise to spare the feelings of those who are endangering others. I have not felt insulted by anything you've said. I can't imagine why you would think otherwise nor why you would wish to exile my words.
Absolutes are, as I stated previously, usually wrong. If I said all PADI instructors are incompetent, I would be wrong since there are excellent PADI instructors. If I say most instructors are incompetent and I've based that statement on years of observations, I just might be right. It is not an absolute, it allows for exceptions and only requires a majority of instructors to be incompetent to be a true statement. Personally, I believe it to be a rather large majority, but that large majority is not necessary for my statement to be true. I don't believe I should ignore this rather serious problem in our industry just because it makes you uncomfortable to examin it.
The example you gave was wrong. If he'd said, "most" instead of "all" I would agree with him, but if his classes are as you describe, I'd lump the divers he trains in with those who are poorly trained.
Sounds to me that you are overly sensitive, perhaps you should evaluate your approach?
First, I never called you stupid. Everything I said, I will say within arm's length of you or anyone else. Your statement sounds very much like a threat, but I'll assume it was not meant in that manner. I attacked what, in my opinion, is a very dangerous approach. I did not attack you or anyone else. You are welcome to accept it as intended or to take it personally. The choice is entirely yours. I stated that putting someone's life in the hands of a person who is unprepared for that responsibility is "an incredibly stupid approach." I certainly would not want anyone I care about to take a dive class from someone who does not know how to teach. Your statement, "the 'OWSI' rating qualifies one to 'learn to teach diving,'" indicates a certified instructor who does not know how to teach. No one should ever be certified to teach unless they know how to teach. Unfortunately, it does happen all too frequently.
"Thank you for correcting the last one by adding ' of course this is my opinion'"
It was not a correction. I was merely pointing out something you apparently missed, value statements are opinions. I rarely state the obvious.
"Your response seemed to me to be a little hostile"
Not at all. While I am not hostile, I do not like it when incompetence endangers the lives of others. I feel strongly on this topic and I will not pretend otherwise to spare the feelings of those who are endangering others. I have not felt insulted by anything you've said. I can't imagine why you would think otherwise nor why you would wish to exile my words.
Absolutes are, as I stated previously, usually wrong. If I said all PADI instructors are incompetent, I would be wrong since there are excellent PADI instructors. If I say most instructors are incompetent and I've based that statement on years of observations, I just might be right. It is not an absolute, it allows for exceptions and only requires a majority of instructors to be incompetent to be a true statement. Personally, I believe it to be a rather large majority, but that large majority is not necessary for my statement to be true. I don't believe I should ignore this rather serious problem in our industry just because it makes you uncomfortable to examin it.
The example you gave was wrong. If he'd said, "most" instead of "all" I would agree with him, but if his classes are as you describe, I'd lump the divers he trains in with those who are poorly trained.
Sounds to me that you are overly sensitive, perhaps you should evaluate your approach?
Hmmm... hmmm... with the reality of the ongoing SCUBA accident rate, and the insistance that "most instructors are incompetent," any reasonable statistician could only conclude that "incompetent" SCUBA instructors are perfectly adequate to the task, or even that SCUBA is inherently safe and "competent" instruction isn't required, so why bother? Or perhaps we don't truly understand what's required.
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "the minimum standard for open water certification is too low" - define why a particular standard needs modification and then rewrite the standard to reflect what's really needed. From my view I'd positively like to smack all the silt-stirrers the current system produces - just for starters.
However - an instructor whose students consistently meet the existing standards is by definition "competent" - and the use of the word "incompetent" is inaccurate and will accomplish absolutely nothing towards improving instruction. All it'll do is piss everybody off who knows they're doing it right according to the existing standard and ruin your credibility.
E. itajara
Perhaps it would be more accurate to say "the minimum standard for open water certification is too low" - define why a particular standard needs modification and then rewrite the standard to reflect what's really needed. From my view I'd positively like to smack all the silt-stirrers the current system produces - just for starters.
However - an instructor whose students consistently meet the existing standards is by definition "competent" - and the use of the word "incompetent" is inaccurate and will accomplish absolutely nothing towards improving instruction. All it'll do is piss everybody off who knows they're doing it right according to the existing standard and ruin your credibility.
E. itajara
"with the reality of the ongoing SCUBA accident rate"
What rate might that be? There are no valid stats on SCUBA accident rates. There can be no valid stats until such time as we know either how many dives are being made or (less reliable) how many divers there are. Neither number is known.
What rate might that be? There are no valid stats on SCUBA accident rates. There can be no valid stats until such time as we know either how many dives are being made or (less reliable) how many divers there are. Neither number is known.
It is low in the extreme, no matter whose numbers you use. With under a hundred deaths in the US (that's a valid number) it's one of the safest recreational activities one can undertake. You are trying to sidestep the issue, my friend, and it just won't wash. Your characterization of "most" instructors as "incompetent" is inaccurate and irresponsible and you don't have any hard data to back it up because there is none, while there is plenty of hard data from all the agencies on how many divers they safely train every year. You need to reevaluate your words if you want to accomplish anything.
Hell, man, I'm on your side and you're pissin' me off!
E. itajara
Statistics for many things are only estimates. It's nothing new. I'm sure no one believes for example that all auto accidents are reported yet the insurance companies set premiums in part, based on what is reported. It's not always an exact science.
I agree with Epinephelus, incompetent is a strong word, and a very subjective word. Too strong a word, IMO, to use for most instructors teaching scuba and therefore yielding the low "reported" accident rate in scuba. Walter and others on the board strongly disagree with the above, believing that most dives are supervised or all accidents or near misses are not reported. Just opinions, thats all. Like many arguments, there's probably truth on both sides of the argument.
My opinion is that most truely incompetent instructors are made not trained. Incompetent instructors did not pass the type of IDC or IE i'm familiar with. What the instructor chooses to do after they pass is largely left up to the individual. It takes time, effort and dedication to teach a thorough OW class. Lose a little bit of any of those three things and the slide into mediocrity begins. I've seen instructor candidates rip through the IDC and IE with no problem, teach passionate, thorough classes and then become mediocre instructors over time due to numerous pressures like an LDC pushing for more production.
I agree with Epinephelus, incompetent is a strong word, and a very subjective word. Too strong a word, IMO, to use for most instructors teaching scuba and therefore yielding the low "reported" accident rate in scuba. Walter and others on the board strongly disagree with the above, believing that most dives are supervised or all accidents or near misses are not reported. Just opinions, thats all. Like many arguments, there's probably truth on both sides of the argument.
My opinion is that most truely incompetent instructors are made not trained. Incompetent instructors did not pass the type of IDC or IE i'm familiar with. What the instructor chooses to do after they pass is largely left up to the individual. It takes time, effort and dedication to teach a thorough OW class. Lose a little bit of any of those three things and the slide into mediocrity begins. I've seen instructor candidates rip through the IDC and IE with no problem, teach passionate, thorough classes and then become mediocre instructors over time due to numerous pressures like an LDC pushing for more production.
ElectricZombie
Contributor
Just because Instructors are not killing their students more often, does not mean that they are competent Instructors. An Instructor can be extremely incompetent and lazy and still have a perfect safety record. Just because they can move a group of divers from point A to point B without injury does not mean a thing. When you go to popular quarries where lots of Instructors conduct checkout dives, you will see a ton dangerous behavior but rarely an injury. Citing the low incidence of injury in the industry does not say anyting about the competence of Instructors.
Bad Instructors come from bad a ITC program. If some of the agencies and LDS teaching these ITC programs would get their act together, the quality of Instructors would improve. Instructor training is often just like Basic OW training; it's based on money and pushing large numbers of people through the classes as fast as possible.
If the person has perfected all skills and had an excellent ITC program, 100 dives is suitable to become an Instructor. I've seen people with 100 or so dives that have made really great Instructors. I would let someone in my family take their class anyday. Again, this depends totally on the individual and their commitment to being a good diver/Instructor.
Bad Instructors come from bad a ITC program. If some of the agencies and LDS teaching these ITC programs would get their act together, the quality of Instructors would improve. Instructor training is often just like Basic OW training; it's based on money and pushing large numbers of people through the classes as fast as possible.
If the person has perfected all skills and had an excellent ITC program, 100 dives is suitable to become an Instructor. I've seen people with 100 or so dives that have made really great Instructors. I would let someone in my family take their class anyday. Again, this depends totally on the individual and their commitment to being a good diver/Instructor.
montereydivemas
Guest
walter once bubbled;
I doubt anyone is ready to teach diving with 100 dives. Looking back on my experience, I had a goal to start teaching as soon as possible. I'm not considered slow in most circles, but I am through. I made sure I was ready before moving on to the next level.
hey you mean THOROUGH dont you walter ? not through
THOROUGH
1complete, comprehensive, deep, detailed, exhaustive, extensive, full, in-depth, penetrating, probing, searching, systematic, thoroughgoing, total,
as opposed to through meaning that you are done or finished with scuba ?
I dont mean to pick on walter but it seems to me that there are a lot of negative responces to this poll and my vote is hell yes 100 dives is plenty. I could have taught my own first open water class (practically) I was overly prepared and pretty much finished by the time class started. I dozed THROUGH the class while the instructor, who was not a great public speaker, corrected the class with my papers which were always passed in and finished first.
I am NOT saying, " Oh I am so great look at me I'm the best diver everywhere" What I am saying is that if the 100 dives you do have are 90% cold water real ocean deep dives and you live and breath salt water than 100 dives (or less) can be plenty. As soon as I got out of open water class I was lucky to be able to start diving a little beach in carmel ca. that we call monestary to an average depth of 80 to 100 feet. by the time I did advanced and rescue I was ready to teach. when I got into my divemaster class and realized how much knowledge had been kept from me, despite the $100's of dollars that I was spending in class, I was a little unhappy. If I had known about it I would have purchased the dive encyclopedia much sooner.
I have about 85 dives now, I have been swimming with sharks, on my own and without a cage. I have run out of air at 60 feet on a solo dive and I am still breathing. I have helped newbies with their first dives and held their hands through equipment purchases. Are you saying that at under 100 dives I havent had enough diversity? I was shocked to see people in my open water class that hadn't even looked at their books yet, this can be a life or death sport. If you dont have enough repect for yourself to learn how to breath when you are underwater you shouldn't scuba. And yet the standard in the industry seems to be, "As long as you pay your money we will pass you" I have seen people that are afraid of the water pressured into learning scuba by their families! This was a woman that panics in a swimming pool. hmmmmmm should she get passed ?
I want to teach, I want a my own boat so i can do tours. The people that go through my classes will have to earn their certificates. Hopefully they will learn more from me than I did in my first class. I am ready today and have been capable since day 1, however I readily agree with cave diver that some or even most people won't be ready to teach with 1000 dives logged.
I doubt anyone is ready to teach diving with 100 dives. Looking back on my experience, I had a goal to start teaching as soon as possible. I'm not considered slow in most circles, but I am through. I made sure I was ready before moving on to the next level.
hey you mean THOROUGH dont you walter ? not through
THOROUGH
1complete, comprehensive, deep, detailed, exhaustive, extensive, full, in-depth, penetrating, probing, searching, systematic, thoroughgoing, total,
as opposed to through meaning that you are done or finished with scuba ?
I dont mean to pick on walter but it seems to me that there are a lot of negative responces to this poll and my vote is hell yes 100 dives is plenty. I could have taught my own first open water class (practically) I was overly prepared and pretty much finished by the time class started. I dozed THROUGH the class while the instructor, who was not a great public speaker, corrected the class with my papers which were always passed in and finished first.
I am NOT saying, " Oh I am so great look at me I'm the best diver everywhere" What I am saying is that if the 100 dives you do have are 90% cold water real ocean deep dives and you live and breath salt water than 100 dives (or less) can be plenty. As soon as I got out of open water class I was lucky to be able to start diving a little beach in carmel ca. that we call monestary to an average depth of 80 to 100 feet. by the time I did advanced and rescue I was ready to teach. when I got into my divemaster class and realized how much knowledge had been kept from me, despite the $100's of dollars that I was spending in class, I was a little unhappy. If I had known about it I would have purchased the dive encyclopedia much sooner.
I have about 85 dives now, I have been swimming with sharks, on my own and without a cage. I have run out of air at 60 feet on a solo dive and I am still breathing. I have helped newbies with their first dives and held their hands through equipment purchases. Are you saying that at under 100 dives I havent had enough diversity? I was shocked to see people in my open water class that hadn't even looked at their books yet, this can be a life or death sport. If you dont have enough repect for yourself to learn how to breath when you are underwater you shouldn't scuba. And yet the standard in the industry seems to be, "As long as you pay your money we will pass you" I have seen people that are afraid of the water pressured into learning scuba by their families! This was a woman that panics in a swimming pool. hmmmmmm should she get passed ?
I want to teach, I want a my own boat so i can do tours. The people that go through my classes will have to earn their certificates. Hopefully they will learn more from me than I did in my first class. I am ready today and have been capable since day 1, however I readily agree with cave diver that some or even most people won't be ready to teach with 1000 dives logged.
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