Is 100 dives enough for an instructor?

[Phil TK]

Walter once bubbled...
Experience as a DM was critical in producing a fast learning curve. In a side note, most DM's are not truly DM's, but are really AI's. A DM's job is safety for dive operations. A DM's primary job is not assisting with classes.

The above is a good point and I'd like to add that DM's can be very important to brand new OW certs. On a couple of occasions I've taken new OW's on a fun dive the very next day after they got their ticket (where I assisted). These were good dives and I really liked being with them as they enjoyed their 'freedom' It was comforting for them I think, - knowing that a familiar face was there to iron over any wrinkles. However on both occasions there where no real wrinkles at all I'm glad to say. ( simple dives and they had a really good instructor! -Jeff, you owe me a Heineken)
I'm sure it would benefit everyone if PADI tagged on one or two discount 'fun dives' with the assisting DM after certification, not least for the enjoyment factor -and it gets me extras beers stood afterwoods.
With regard to the question of the number of dives in relation to being a good instructor -I'm not sure. I have mountains of motorcycle experience but I don't think I was a great m/c instructor - although some said I was good. I just wasn't convinced myself. Maybe I didn't enjoy it enough.
I like being a DM, it's huge fun and maybe in the right situation I will have a go at the AI course someday, but for now I'm happy.

Phil TK

 

[WreckWriter]

Walter is right. 75% of instructors are incompetent. The reason the accident rate is so low is that so many divers dive under the supervision of resort DMs, many of which are competent.

I say this as a 10 year dive boat captain in Key Largo.

WW

 

[neil]

gedunk once bubbled...

Incompetent instructors did not pass the type of IDC or IE i'm familiar with.

Wish I could say the same. When I did my PADI crossover IE, I went expecting to have to pull out all the stops and really wow them. Was I in for a surprise! IMO, a lot of incompetent candidates were certified that weekend. Of the 27 candidates, maybe 5 were what I would consider true instructor material. Most passed. Be afraid.
Neil

 

[Rick Murchison]

Mein Gott!
According to Walter and WreckWriter we should all have had some really bad instructors.. I mean, at least more than half, right?
Lessee, now, thinking back over the years, I've had no less than seven different instructors for a score or more courses, and not one of 'em was incompetent. Not one!
How many of yours have been incompetent, Walter? WreckWriter? Got names? Surely you don't want anyone else to suffer these incompetents do you?
Who here on Scubaboard has actually had these incompetents as instructors, who were they and where did they work? Surely most of you have had mostly incompetents, especially since I haven't had any - and at least 75% (WreckWriter) are incompetent.
Not that I haven't seen instructors with whom I've been less than impressed, and I've certainly seen products from instructors I consider marginal... but incompetent? Not yet, and I've been at this a very long time.
Rick

 

[Butch103]

Because as previously mentioned in some elses post, when I was done my OW I felt I could teach it to anyone......The point being was I taught enough ??...Was I taught the right technics, or perhaps better stated better technics ?.....I felt my OW instructor was very competant....It was only after that I believe he could have taught me a better way. When I completed my OW I was very comfortable in diving without an instructor or DM around.....I firmly believe I was well instructed.

Walter, I believe you made a statement regarding knowing how many divers there are. I guess to nitpick, I don't believe it would be hard to figure out how many divers ( carded) there are, but as I believe you may be stating is how many active carded divers there are......(not to put words or thoughts into your mouth.)(assuming I am correct in my thinking).....The agencies would have the number of divers registered...... And again someone else beat me to the punch, how many "incidents/accidents" diving related are reported. I would guess only those where the "authorities" are brought into the situation.

Monteray.....would your OOA qualify as an incident/accident....perhaps it should.....this is obviously a diver mistake.......I am pretty sure these are not reported........

Each of us is entitled to their own opinion without being subject to ridicule....I enjoy the intelligent discussion...lets not lower this thread to mudslinging folks.....

 

[WreckWriter]

Rick Murchison once bubbled...
and at least 75% (WreckWriter) are incompetent.

so maybe I overestimated a bit

I really have seen a lot of bad ones but 75% might be a bit harsh.

WW

 

[Walter]

montereydivemas,

Thanks for pointing out my typo, it is now corrected. I proofread, but I miss some from time to time.

Epinephelus,

Not sidestepping the issue at all. We do not know the accident rate and probably never will. I did not try to turn the topic toward accident rates. Sorry if you are pissed off, but the "accident rates" are still not valid. Accident rates, even if they did exist, are not the best indicator of an instructor's competence.

You are certainly welcome to believe most instructors are competent, I do not.

gedunk,

Yes, "Statistics for many things are only estimates." It's nice to have fairly reliable numbers to begin the process. We do not have those numbers.

"is a strong word, and a very subjective word."

No arguments there.

"My opinion is that most truely incompetent instructors are made not trained."

They are "not trained" or perhaps under trained.

 

[Big-t-2538]

IMHO---teaching isn't something that comes with a number of dives. Teaching is a totally seperate skill than diving. I say this as having been a GTA for a number of semesters and running classes when my advisor was absent. The ability to teach isn't something you just learn by diving. I think the number of dives question should be more related to DiveMaster's than to an Instructor. I think in order for someone to be able to be an instructor, they must be a well-experienced DM first. DM's should be able to handle emergencies u/w and any other situation that might arise while leading a group good or bad.

As for stepping into teaching, some people are very good at teaching the physics, physiology, equipment explanantions, etc. about diving, others are not, and they are GREAT DMs. Yes, being able to dive is definetly a requirment to being an instructor. Being able to demonstrate skills u/w and handle emergencies is also part of being an instructor. However, these are also skills a DM should have also and before someone ventures into the instructor realm.

So in light...is the number of dives required for a DM 100, I would think that would have to depend on the experience and skill level of the DM canidate. Some people are born to handle situations and problem solve when the time arrives. These are also skills that can be learned through experience. With the proper training, experience, and (IMHO) most IMPORTANT PREP work before a dive, you can be a successful DM w/o 100 dives.

 

[Epinephelus]

Walter once bubbled...
Epinephelus,

Not sidestepping the issue at all. We do not know the accident rate and probably never will. I did not try to turn the topic toward accident rates. Sorry if you are pissed off, but the "accident rates" are still not valid. Accident rates, even if they did exist, are not the best indicator of an instructor's competence.

You are certainly welcome to believe most instructors are competent, I do not.

Names.
Dates.
Actions.
What have you done to correct it? I see that you have been writing and complaining from the sidelines for quite awhile, even gotten PADI so pissed thay started a lawsuit. Has this helped the problem you see? Has one single incompetent been removed (or even better, become competent) because you took action? Has the quality of the ITC's offered by the agencies improved? Perhaps you need to reevaluate your approach if your goal is to actually have a positive effect. All I see so far is a bunch of stone throwing, negative press and not one single positive budge on anyone's part.
If you are going to call someone incompetent, you'd better be able to document, line and verse, where they have consistently failed to meet the established standards of their agency. Not your standards, but the standards they are bound to by the people they are certifying for. Incompetent means "not legally qualified" or "lacking sufficient knowledge, skills or ability." The agencies set these standards, not you. Do you mean to say that the standards themselves are not sufficiently well defined or stringent enough to meet the test of "sufficient knowledge, skills or ability" to teach scuba diving? Or are you accusing the agencies of gross negligence in failing to ensure their standards are met? For over half the instructors to be "incompetent" you have to be claiming one or the other - or both.
And I echo Rick's post in asking you how many of your instructors were incompetent; and asking the board in general how many incompetent instructors people have actually had as their own instructors.
I've seen a few instructors that appeared to me to be sub-par, and I've seen certified divers who either didn't pay attention to what they were taught or else had to have had incompetent instruction - and I would indeed agree that most newly certified divers have lots of poor technique, but to claim "most" instructors are incompetent is so far off-base as to be dismissed as hysterical. And hysteria doesn't accomplish anything.
Like the missionary whose first words are hell-fire and damnation, you won't get many converts.
What is your goal?
E. itajara

 

[TCDiver1]

ElectricZombie once bubbled...
Citing the low incidence of injury in the industry does not say anyting about the competence of Instructors.

What measure of competence would you recommend then? Go to Coz or some other popular destination, hop a cattle boat with 20 or so other divers and watch what happens. Many are typically newer divers, many have poor trim, most that i see have average to below average buoyancy control but the majority are not bouncing off the reef.

I know this isn't the popular view on this board but i don't call that incompetence. No doubt most divers skills could be better, all our skills could be better, but IMO the majority is not incompetent. To me it's more of a dedication thing. Few divers today are dedicated enough to actually practice what they learned in OW water training to improve their skill level. The skills they did learn will continue to errode with time. How does that relate to how competently they were trained? I guess i just haven't seen this high occurrance of incompetence some of you speak of. Blame only instructors if you want but to me that is only part of the problem that does exist.

Dm's do save the day on a regular basis, i have seen and/or participated in numerous saves over the years but no instructor or Dm i have ever met can successfully manage high ratios of incompetent divers to supervisors. If most divers were truely incompetent, ratios of more than 2 or 3 to 1 would be very difficult to handle, and IMO more accidents would happen.

Mainly depends on what your definition of "incompetent" is i suppose. Personally i don't buy the whole, "low reported accident rates means nothing", thing. If you buy into the argument that most instruction is incompetent, diving must be so inherently safe, better instruction is not required to minimize accidents. Otherwise, mainstream instruction must be meeting the minimum requirement needed for divers to not get hurt in large numbers. By even the most conservative estimate of total dives per year versus reported accidents, diving is very safe. Worry about driving to work each day, now that's dangerous!

Dive related deaths are documented, chamber rides are documented, any major injury caused by diving is documented by the hospital of record in the US at least. I'll agree that many non-life threating incidents never get reported but the same is true of most sports. Heck if i reported every sprained ankle, jammed finger, dislocated shoulder or laceration sustained participating in sports growing up, i could raise the US rate by one percentage point by myself.