inverted manifolded twins

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I'm not constantly making changes to my equipment. I dive different equipment at different times. Driving a car involves danger. I build muscle memory driving my own car. That does not mean I am unsafe on the few occasions when I drive my wife's car. If I was I would not have her nor my 1 yr old son in the vehicle while I drive a car that I am not optimally familiarized with. If I am to go up to the mountains and I know I will most likely need to climb over rocks, wade through rivers and negotiate mud pits, of course I will take my car and not hers because my car is so much better suited for the mission. Just because I like the 17 inch wheels in my car, it does not mean I swap them and put it my wife's car when I drive it. I am not constantly making changes to our cars. I just drive different cars at different times.
I bet if you grabbed a car from a different country where the steering wheel was on the wrong side you'd have some adjustment time. I certainly wouldn't like to hop in the middle of city traffic with a car substantially different than what I'm used to driving and get into heavy traffic or heavy rain.

If you notice, bright lights, blinkers, steering wheels, gas pedals, etc are located in nearly the same spot on each car. Car manufactures "get it".
 
My post was mostly addressed to Saspotato

Speaking of cars I do find that for me it takes time to adjust to my wife's car and vise versa. Especially it it reflected on how well I switch the gears. Her car requires shorter pauses between the shifts. And it is in fact reflecting on safety big time, especially when it's slippery, besides hers is an RWD car and mine is a FWD. Each requires application of different techniques. You might not know whether you are safe or not until you get into a real f.. situation and muscle memory has to work.
 
Well, I was going to multiquote but there was too much to consider and most of it isn't really relevant to the topic anyways. A number of you guys subscribe to a regime that encourages standardization and there isn't really any point trying to argue against that (with you). I don't want to anyways because if it works for you, and you're happy, that's all that matters.

The fact is, I don't know enough about this system myself so (if I don't go diving this weekend) I'm going to set up an inverted rig and see just what hose lengths, routing, stage bottle interference etc... actually is involved. If I find it workable I'll go do a dive or two with it early in the week.

I'll post back when I have some answers.

Link to inverted twins RAID system: http://www.flashbackscuba.com/RAID/RAID.html
 
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I bet if you grabbed a car from a different country where the steering wheel was on the wrong side you'd have some adjustment time. I certainly wouldn't like to hop in the middle of city traffic with a car substantially different than what I'm used to driving and get into heavy traffic or heavy rain.
Of course I would have adjustment time. That doesn't mean UK, Australia, Bahamas, etc. are doing it the wrong way. There may even be studies out there saying that most people in the world are left brained (or right?) and therefore humans are better suited to drive on the left side of the road. Still doesn't make it the "wrong way" of doing things. Something similar could be said of metric vs imperial.

If you notice, bright lights, blinkers, steering wheels, gas pedals, etc are located in nearly the same spot on each car. Car manufactures "get it".
We're getting into the basics common for all cars here. All OC rigs will also have some basics common to all of them -- breathing gas under pressure, a demand valve -- usually in 2 stages, hoses, spg, etc. My car has 3 wiper blades, my wife's has two. Our cars are not standardized. Our wiper blades are not swappable. In some vehicles the rear blinkers are orange, in others the blinkers are red. We can go as generic or as specific to argue for or against standardization.
 
Well, I was going to multiquote but there was too much to consider and most of it isn't really relevant to the topic anyways. A number of you guys subscribe to a regime that encourages standardization and there isn't really any point trying to argue against that (with you). I don't want to anyways because if it works for you, and you're happy, that's all that matters.

The fact is, I don't know enough about this system myself so (if I don't go diving this weekend) I'm going to set up an inverted rig and see just what hose lengths, routing, stage bottle interference etc... actually is involved. If I find it workable I'll go do a dive or two with it early in the week.

I'll post back when I have some answers.
That'll be interesting to watch. Let me know when you go out. I may be able to go with you. You'll probably need an extra set of hands to help you take them off since you probably don't want to sit them on the valves.
 
Years ago I dove an AGA setup that used two smallish HP bottles that were mounted valve down. I liked it.
 
Doing constant changes does not promote safety.

I have not had trouble switching between my different gear setups, i.e single v doubles or when I have borrowed gear. I spent over a year borrowing twins and deco bottles and so on, before I got my own so I tried many types. I am very glad I got to do this so I knew exactly what I wanted in mine. When I was new it was helpful to have the same gear so I agree with that... but these days I can adapt.

The gear that I swap between now does not get changed around often (i.e. I'm not constantly fiddling with my BC or hoses or so on) but I do have a few setups that I swap between. As I've already said it would be intolerable to only be restricted to one setup given the types of dives that I do.

I bet if you grabbed a car from a different country where the steering wheel was on the wrong side you'd have some adjustment time. I certainly wouldn't like to hop in the middle of city traffic with a car substantially different than what I'm used to driving and get into heavy traffic or heavy rain.

Well of course, I wouldn't go into city traffic in heavy rain with a car very different to my own (manual RHS drive, changing models within this would not bother me and I would treat it like normal driving). But then I wouldn't take a brand new setup into a difficult dive environment either. And actually driving is far more complicated and dangerous than what the vast majority of divers will ever experience, so the analogy is a bit strong.

And say I did have to go overseas and drive a LHS car on the opposite side of the road to what I am used to, well I wouldn't throw up my hands and go 'not going to do it because it is not what I am used to and I don't have the muscle memory for it', I'd start small (like I did when I was in Germany! :))

Standardisation between buddies would be nice, but I dive with many different people - I've had about 100 buddies in nearly 400 dives, of all kinds of experience levels (but higher percentage of new divers) and there is just no way I can ever expect, outside of regular buddies and certain dives that I do, to have standardisation of my gear with buddies. I just don't plan for it because it would be impractical for me.

DaleC, I would be interested to hear how it goes for you!
 
Well I managed to do some experimenting with inverted tanks.

I initially started with my Luxfer Al 80's but found that, in order to reach the valves, I had to mount them quite high up on my back. Besides having big squarish butts sticking up near my ears I also figured that they would ride far too top heavy to really be practical. They were also quite heavy to doff and don and I was worried about banging the valves (I was alone) so, for a variety of reasons I gave up working with them.

The first thing I learned is that having a valve protector makes all the difference in working with inverted doubles. With them set up would be fairly straight forward; without them it was both heavy and worrisome.

I switched to a pair of decommisioned AL tanks that I have which are the same dimensionally as ST72's. Much better. You will notice they don't actually have k valves but I was able to position my hands where there ought to be valve knobs by using a mirror and feeling. Here's a shot of the tanks mounted on a backplate showing some hose routing up behind it (the backplate). With banded doubles the hoses would route nicely between the bands:
Picture2004-6.jpg





I tried to imagine manipulating an isolator valve and found that it would present some problems inverted. I could reach the valve somewhat if it were pointed straight at my back but it would also dig into my back (well ok, A$$) as well. If I rotated it downward to avoid gouging my back I found I could not reach far enough to manipulate it very well at all. In the end I suspect a isolator valve extender (AKA slobknob) would be needed. How this would route to be both accessible and workable I don't know.

Picture2013-2.jpg





Here I felt a bit like those guys on mythbusters. You cannot just reach between your legs to manipulate the isolation valve. The more you try; the further away it goes.

Picture2014-1.jpg





But reaching the left/right valves was far easier inverted.

Picture2012-3.jpg





No custom reg hoses are needed. Here I am using a 40" hose routed up behind the backplate.

Picture2007-5.jpg





And a 5' longhose routed in the traditional way.

Picture2008-4.jpg





Donating poses no problems

Picture2009-4.jpg





In the first photo you could see an SPG routed up behind the backplate. With a 36" hose it clipped into my chest D ring over the shoulder (ghosts of another thread). Unfortunately I didn't take a picture. Here I tucked it into the cam band and clipped it off on the hip. With some thought a cleaner routing solution using standard hoses could be found.

Picture2011-3.jpg





Drysuit hose, no probem (and yes I know it's trapped under my waistbelt).

Picture2010-4.jpg





Now I learn something new.
First, a standard 36" LP BC hose is available which could route up behind the backplate to be used with a wing in the conventional way... but then I remembered several threads wherein sidemount divers said they switched the bottom dump valve for the inflator hose to accomidate their hose routing. The last picture shows my attempt at this and the obvious results. Now I have to start a new thread somewhere to ask just how they do it?

Picture2015-2.jpg


I also clipped off a stage bottle at one point (again no photo) and it didn't really present a big problem as far as accessing the right/left valves (it was the same as finding the SPG clipped off at the hip). That was only one stage though (Al80) beyond that I can't comment.

In the end I learned some things about inverted tanks.

A valve protector is needed to even work on them. I thought of several ideas along the way and such a devise wouldn't pose much of a problem for anyone with welding/fabrication skills but only a crazy person would dive without one. During my little "experiment" I couldn't help but marvel at the fact that those Cousteau packs really were both practical and cosmetic. All the routing was set out and everything was well protected at the same time as presenting a minimal profile for entanglements.

Diving with St 72's or other small tanks would be ok but larger tanks would, at some point, begin to present balance and profile problems.

With some forethought, hose routing doesn't present much of a issue and standard length hoses would work.

Using an isolation manifold would be problematic without an extender (the efficacy of which I can't comment on as I have never used one). Diving with independant twins would (all other points being equal) allow easier valve access to the left/right valves.

I personally wouldn't dive the system except as a novelty as (like Sas stated earlier) it doesn't really solve any problems for me. If I had compromised shoulders that couldn't be corrected I would give BM or SM independants twins a long look first.
 
Dale, Thanks for taking the time to experiment and give some unbiased thoughts about using a system such as this.
 
or you could just not invert them? since there's no reason to and it presents all the problems you encountered (and people told you you would encounter)
 

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