Interesting history of DIR debate. . .

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PhotoTJ once bubbled...
2. All would benefit? Hmmm, maybe. But if I only drive to church on Sunday, do I need to go to the Bob Bonduraunt school of stunt driving? Doubt it.
You're assuming in this statement that DIR-F is teaching the equivalent of stunt diving. That's not correct. DIR-F teaches basics, many of which are covered in any given OW course. But it teaches them differently and for a different purpose, and it teaches divers that those fundamentals need to be mastered, not just done a few times during OW dives and then left behind.

These basics serve a very important purpose that is as valuable to the twice a year tropical diver as it is to the avid recreational/tech diver who is in the water as much as possible. Safety, for both your team, and the environment you're diving in. '

If DIR-F can help even just a few tropical divers be more sensitive to their surroundings and have the skills not touch coral reefs and do damage to the fragile ecosystem they are in, then I'm happy.

And yet, even though DIR-F teaches the basics, most divers get their butts kicked in even the gentlest DIR-F course. I know I did.
Here's an engineering point of view.

If it works, leave it alone. Good enough is always good enough, while perfect is a pain in the a$$, and usually not that much better.
See, there's a good point. If you're a solo diver, or you dive with a solo mentality, then this is fine. You don't have to be perfect as long as you're satisfied with where you are. The only person you are accountable to is you and you can do whatever you want.

But DIR diving requires a level of accountability in a diver that is not reflected in your statement. I don't practice my skills, re-read my notes on gas management (which I did last night), practice my buoyancy, review my dives both before and after, and systematically check both me and my buddy during, before and after a dive, for me. I do it for my buddy. And I expect them to do it for me. Because when you dive together your brain has to be on and your skills have to be solid or you're not a good buddy.

I don't speak for DIR or GUE and yes, I'm an acolyte. But for me, it's about developing a sensitivity and awareness in your diving that you have no idea you don't have until you actually get a taste of it. It will change every dive you do.

In fact, it makes the "driving to church" dives even more like really going to church.

Why do the acolytes persist in trying to convert those who have no desire to be converted?
Recall that this thread is entitled "Interesting history of DIR debate..." We're just here talking about it, man. If you don't want to talk about it, then don't be here. I'm not trying to convert you.

All of us can learn things and become more aware and no one is perfect. But if you were to become more sensitive and open and aware in your diving, your photography would be better, just as your diving would be better. When it's done right, it's a state of mind.

Margaret
 
Cave Diver once bubbled...


You can take a DIRF class at anytime, but dont expect to do well unless you have pretty well mastered neutral bouyancy.
Yeah, ok, gotta disagree.

Neutral buoyancy is one of the fundamentals. I don't think that it's a separate, standalone skill that you can "master" before you try DIR diving. Neutral buoyancy is all tangled up with proper weighting, trim, maneuverability, gear and awareness.

If you try to "master" it before taking DIR-F, it's not bad to practice and become more aware of your buoyancy, but you're going to have to take it all apart again anyway when your weighting gets changed, you try diving DIR gear (unless you've already been using a backplate/wing), and you start doing skills while hanging in the water column.

Windwalker, trust your GUE instructor to help you with all of this stuff. It's their job to teach you the Fundamentals of Better Diving, which includes neutral buoyancy. The guidelines suggest something like having a minimum of 25 dives past openwater before taking DIR-F. I think the sooner you take it, the better; your ego won't be as involved, your habits won't be as unconscious and ingrained.

Margaret
 
All this is pure BS- DIR has never had a new idea.
anyone can have nuetral buoyancy - it's not hard.
what is hard to accomplish is proper trim, it's almost impossible with a weight belt, it's hard to do with a jacket BC with integrated weights because of the fixed pockets. it is easily done with a BP/wing.
all proper trim is (for those who don't know) is the ability to place your body in any attitude in the water and remain that way until you change it - not to return to a given position; for example a vertical position ( the most common) is caused by the weights being to low on the body(and maybe to far back). if you tend to roll face down the weights are to far forward. the closer you get the weights to your center of buoyancy ( and it will move around a little with just how much air is in the BC) the better. even with a BP/wing it takes some experimentation to get it right.

swiming backwards? anybody ever hear of "skulling"?
 
Custer once bubbled...



I thought that the "Scubaguys" (Ohio?) were the latest GUE instructors, but the rest of your post is on the money, and common knowlege.

Maybe you should be the GUE historian.

The Scubaguys (www.scubaguys.com) are in Detroit, Michigan area, and Scot Wernette (scubaguy 2) was the latest instructor to make the GUE Fundamental's list.
 
James connell once bubbled...
All this is pure BS- DIR has never had a new idea.
anyone can have nuetral buoyancy - it's not hard.
what is hard to accomplish is proper trim, it's almost impossible with a weight belt, it's hard to do with a jacket BC with integrated weights because of the fixed pockets. it is easily done with a BP/wing.
all proper trim is (for those who don't know) is the ability to place your body in any attitude in the water and remain that way until you change it - not to return to a given position; for example a vertical position ( the most common) is caused by the weights being to low on the body(and maybe to far back). if you tend to roll face down the weights are to far forward. the closer you get the weights to your center of buoyancy ( and it will move around a little with just how much air is in the BC) the better. even with a BP/wing it takes some experimentation to get it right.

swiming backwards? anybody ever hear of "skulling"?

Dear Mr. Connel,

DIR has lots of great ideas, but you probably don't know of them because you've never taken one of their classes, have you?

As for bouyancy and trim, read some of the zillions of posts on this subject and you will find that in every DIR fundamentals class, one of the first things you are told is that THIS IS NOTHING NEW AND REVOLUTIONARY. It's mentioned in the PADI OW book!

The problem is, almost no one teaches it to any level of proficiency. These two skills are some of the basic building blocks of diving.

Oh yeah, proper trim is having your body in a horizontal position. Not vertical, not semi horizontal, not anyway other than horizontal.

Sculling? As with your hands? Is this a joke?
 
detroit diver once bubbled...
Oh yeah, proper trim is having your body in a horizontal position. Not vertical, not semi horizontal, not anyway other than horizontal.

Sculling? As with your hands? Is this a joke?

What you have just proven is you know nothing about which you talk.
proper trim is being able to place your body in ANY attitude and have it remain there with little or no effort on your part to maintain that position - the fact that you don't know this proves just what a poser you are and if you ever took a dir-f course you learned nothing.

no, sheepdip, "skulling" doesn't involve the hands :rolleyes: it involves the feet and is the skill of moving ANY direction you wish.
 
James connell once bubbled...


What you have just proven is you know nothing about which you talk.
proper trim is being able to place your body in ANY attitude and have it remain there with little or no effort on your part to maintain that position - the fact that you don't know this proves just what a poser you are and if you ever took a dir-f course you learned nothing.

no, sheepdip, "skulling" doesn't involve the hands :rolleyes: it involves the feet and is the skill of moving ANY direction you wish.

You still havent' answered my question-have you taken a DIR Fundamentals course? Or any GUE course?

Sheepdip? Boy, aren't we in a foul mood today. Did you come from rec.scuba?

Poser? I'll let the people who I dive with determine that.

As for trim, that isn't what I was taught. You can go out of trim to put yourself into any position you like, but trim is horizontal. Period.

Here's an article from a GUE instructor that will help you out. The very first line should set the tone (bolding by me). Of course, you seem to know much more about DIR than I do, so my apologies if it's completely off base.:rolleyes:

One more thing-yes, Tamara Kendel is a GUE instructor. Go to www.gue.com and look at the instructor database.


The key to developing better in water skills

- - - - - - - - - - - -
BY TAMARA KENDEL

Good trim requires that a diver move through the water in a horizontal position with the feet up.Most divers swim in a foot-down position using a kick that gives downward thrust. This attitude increases the surface area of the diver that must be pushed through the water, which requires more energy and increases air consumption. Also, much of the downward thrust caused by the kick is effort wasted against poor buoyancy control-- part of the kick must compensate for the diver’s lack of neutral buoyancy. It is also crucial to realize that the feet-down position will lead to dead coral, bad visibility and damaged cave, all of which should be important issues for divers.

It is fairly easy to evaluate trim. If a finning technique that gives downward propulsion is used, a diver will receive a resulting lift to their body. Divers who fin in this manner will notice that when they stop kicking, they have to add gas to their BC to keep from sinking. When they begin kicking again, they will then need to dump air to keep from becoming positively buoyant. Good trim and propulsion techniques preclude having to adjust buoyancy whenever stopping or resuming swimming.

An effective method to develop good trim is to frequently stop swimming during a dive. The diver should not rise or sink. If buoyancy does change, the diver should adjust it and their trim, and then continue. Eventually, buoyancy and trim will improve and the diver will have make adjustments less often. An alternative is to use the frog kick, since its long glide phase allows divers to sense their buoyancy and trim as they continue forward progress.

Many divers are able to stay in an efficient trim position until they need to use a reel or solve a problem requiring a stationary position. Losing trim position during an emergency situation can worsen the problem and make it more difficult to handle. One reason divers tend to lose their trim during emergencies is that they were taught in open water class to flood and clear their masks by first become negatively buoyant and kneeling on the bottom of the pool. This detrimental practice carries over to the open water where divers can often be seen stopping, kneeling and clearing their masks before continuing their dives. It is obviously not necessary to kneel in order to clear a mask; experienced open water divers clear them while swimming. When cave students enter the cave they commonly enter with good trim, but the moment they start to tie off the reel, they kneel on the bottom. This, too, is unnecessary and it is also damaging to visibility and the preservation of the cave. Making a conscious effort to keep your legs up will eventually make the posture second nature.

The other aspect of having good trim involves equipment: there is specific gear that makes it easier or more difficult to stay in good trim. When divers use aluminum cylinders, they usually need weight belts which are worn on the lower half of the body. This puts divers in a feet down position. To complicate matters, the traditional jacket-style BC that is generally worn lifts the upper portion of the body, making it even more difficult to keep a trim position. This conflict of buoyancy caused by aluminum cylinders and jacket-style BCs makes it very difficult to keep a trim position. A steel cylinder can be used to rid the diver of a weight belt. This distributes the weight across the length of the diver’s torso, primarily above the lungs where it is specifically required. If a steel cylinder is not available, then a stainless steel back plate, and/or a BC Keel (a contoured, coated piece of lead that is cam-strapped high on the back of the cylinder) can be used to remove weight from a belt. A stainless steel back plate ranges from five to 12 pounds and a BC Keel from six to 11 pounds. Divers wearing double cylinders can wear a v-weight, a contoured piece of lead that fits between the cylinders and the back plate, which weighs between six to 11 pounds. Regardless of which method is used, the diver must be sure to match the weighting to the buoyancy requirements of the dive, just as when using a weight belt.

Wearing a set of buoyancy wings, rather than a jacket, back-mount or horse collar style BC, will disperse the lift on the diver evenly across the torso to effectively compensate for the weight of the cylinders. Also, a crotch strap helps to stabilize all of the equipment worn by the diver. This strap is attached to the bottom of the back plate, with a loop sewn in the front for the waist belt.

Overall, the equipment most conducive to achieving good trim is a set of steel cylinders with a back plate, harness with crotch strap, and wings. Additionally, consider taking a video camera on a dive. Watching yourself diving is often a surprising, but educational, experience. A buddy who is willing to give constructive criticism is also a valuable tool. Together, these diving practices and equipment choices will enable you to achieve good buoyancy and trim skills, making your dives much more enjoyable and efficient.
end quote

I edited this to inform those not familiar with the DIR concepts- the steel cylinders that Tamara is referring to in the last paragraph is for those that dive drysuits and double cylinders. When diving doubles in a wetsuit, the tanks are to be Aluminum.
 
detroit diver once bubbled...


You still havent' answered my question-have you taken a DIR Fundamentals course? Or any GUE course?

Sheepdip? Boy, aren't we in a foul mood today. Did you come from rec.scuba?

Poser? I'll let the people who I dive with determine that.

As for trim, that isn't what I was taught. You can go out of trim to put yourself into any position you like, but trim is horizontal. Period.


I'm always impressed by those who know nothing quoteing others , when they don't have the slightest clue what that person is saying.

if you were taught that proper trim is to always be horizontal in the water get a new instuctor and your money back from the one who missinformed you.

by your logic if you were to use a "bridle" from your neck area to your crotch area and hang a 20 lb weight from ~ the middle of it a few feet below you, you would have acheived "perfect" trim ( once it was set to keep you horizontal in the water) it would also make it next to impossiable to be anything other than horizontal!! you couldn't turn on your side/back and you certainly couldn't get near vertical. you have completely failed to understand ANY of what you quoted from Tamera.

a STARTing point for good trim is what she described NOT the end point.
you also don't seem to know the difference between buoyancy and trim.

no i'v never taken a gue course nor will i,

NOTHING dir has ever come up with is original, they have no ideas good or otherwise only a cult mentality.
 
Wow, that's becoming more and more interesting :D :D :D From history of Dir debate to debate itself - I just love it :D

... and btw, I just signed up for a DirF class, so that I would know it firshand whether it's useful (and I think it is) or not :wink:

Or, yeah, talking about "very experienced" divers that have been diving for years and know almost everything. On my last dive, we had quite a few of those, and guess what, I'm, being a newbe, was trying to stay away from them because of all the silt that they stirred up....

khel
 
James connell once bubbled...


I'm always impressed by those who know nothing quoteing others , when they don't have the slightest clue what that person is saying.

if you were taught that proper trim is to always be horizontal in the water get a new instuctor and your money back from the one who missinformed you.

by your logic if you were to use a "bridle" from your neck area to your crotch area and hang a 20 lb weight from ~ the middle of it a few feet below you, you would have acheived "perfect" trim ( once it was set to keep you horizontal in the water) it would also make it next to impossiable to be anything other than horizontal!! you couldn't turn on your side/back and you certainly couldn't get near vertical. you have completely failed to understand ANY of what you quoted from Tamera.

a STARTing point for good trim is what she described NOT the end point.
you also don't seem to know the difference between buoyancy and trim.

no i'v never taken a gue course nor will i,

NOTHING dir has ever come up with is original, they have no ideas good or otherwise only a cult mentality.

You have nothing to offer but arguement about DIR.

I rest my case. Kool-aid anyone?:D
 
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