Interesting approach to automatic Buoyancy at DEMA

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That was what got me to watch the video in the first place. I LOVE the idea of being able to ditch 30 pounds of kit. And I think it would be great for lots and lots of vacation divers. I imagine beyond the lightweight kit, they'd love the sense of freedom, and never feel happy enclosed in a jacket BCD again.

An AL80+valve+BCD weighs what? 40, 45 pounds? If the Avelo kit weighs 40 pounds (I wish they would say, exactly), and they assume their typical "traditional" diver wears 12 - 18 pounds of lead (properly weighted, really?), that doesn't come close to adding up to 30 pounds less. What am I missing? I'm really interested to hear.
They are using a lighter carbon fiber wrapped over aluminum tank. Hella strong apparently as it is rated for 300bar service pressure.

My question is the overall weight of the standard dive gear kit. With an Al BP/W and steel tank in a rash guard (thank you warm south Florida) in salt I need no extra weight. No way that kit weighs 70 lbs. HP 100 weighs 34#. 6# for BP/W, 4# for regs and that’s 44#. Even if I’m in a 7mm (men’s XL) with hood and gloves (temperate Kalifornia) with an extra 16# of lead I’m up to 60#.

I think their 70# kit is simply an exaggeration of a colder water diver with a full exposure suit to make their kit sound more appealing. Question is, can it still handle a thick exposure suit without additional lead?

I don’t think this is a bad thing. Many divers are vacation only divers maybe a few dives a year. Buoyancy control is a perishable skill and those divers are likely not going to be starting out with good control, assuming they had it to start with. By the end they might be dialed back in. But those who have never had it dialed in and showed no interest in doing so, this might help keep them from crashing into reefs or making uncontrolled ascents. Both of which would be desirable.

It’s like an automatic transmission has come to the diving world. And just like an automatic is more complicated than a manual, detaches the driver from the mechanics of driving, requires more skill, knowledge, and awareness, it can make for a more enjoyable experience for some. I doubt the average Scubaboard member is the demographic they are targeting.

Or to look at it another way, it’ll pair well with the Apple watch DC and split fins. ;)
 
I did my own dry weight calculation with my BC and AL80. Knighthawk is 9 pounds, AL80 with regulator full is 40 pounds. Additional weight needed to make this diveable in salt water is 10 pounds in 3 mm full suit. Total weight 59 pounds. Avelo dive system with same amount of gas total weight 45 pounds. So I save 14 pounds. It’s not 30 pounds, but it’s not nothing. Essentially the weight savings is the dry weight of the BC and whatever lead is needed for conventional diving in salt water with an AL80. Getting rid of excess weighting and bubble management would be really great for occasional resort divers, and I’m guessing the course length is to get autonomous divers familiar with estimating remaining gas and to make back some R and D money. I could see this as a shorter Discover Avelo dive setup, much like Discover Scuba and Discover Nitrox. The instructor would monitor the gas status for a couple of new try divers who stay at a high end resort like the Grand Hyatt, St. Regis, etc. We may laugh and shake our head, but look at what else is offered in Hawaii.


1 tank dive 220, 1 tank dive with Navy Seal 590, 1 tank dive with helicopter jump 1300, 1 tank dive with helicopter jump with Navy Seal 3000.
 
#1- I am TOTALLY in favor of the Avelo system. Here is why- I am a 65 year old male in good shape, but I dread putting everything on that we do now. Anything that makes diving easier (and can keep me diving longer) is for me. I bought (and still have my original) diving gear in the 1980's and it still works, but if there is a trip I want to gone on I will simply rent my equipment rather than buy the $1500 to $5000 rig for it to sit until I go again. Avelo is currently in Maui and that would be a great diving site. In 2023 they are going to announce the next locations. I am looking forward to using Avelo in place of the current diving equipment to get a better diving experience.

One analogy is from Car and Driver magazine to "Save the Manuals", but they even agree that in everyday traffic an automatic is better. I just want to get in, put it in gear, and go!
 
Nothing I have seen on this suggests that it is actually that much lighter than a comparable and properly sized conventional setup.
Absolutely. Tough to get around physics. I mark it at an 11 lb difference in mass from a properly weighted, comparable system (and possibly less). Details follow...

Given the stated typical capacity/pressure, we know the displacement is no smaller than an AL80. At dive start, Avelo is 2.75 kg positive (Orr video, 53:20) compared to 2.3 kg (5 lb) negative for a properly weighted, comparable system.

Thus, the comparable-capacity comparison has a mass difference of about 5 kg (11 lbs). Sure that's nicer coming up the ladder, but it's not even close to the 25-30 lb difference they show in the video (70-75 lb vs 45 lb). I think it's likely the Avelo tank displacement is actually larger than an AL80 (leaving room for the collapsed bladder), meaning the mass difference would be even less than 11 lb.

(As an aside, I don't buy their claim that wetsuits don't matter, but if they can pretend that buoyancy change is negligible, then so can the conventional system.)
 
I'm supportive of attempts to innovate, however this seems like an expensive and complicated solution to a simple problem. I mean, sure I'd try it for free, but for normal diving I'd probably sooner dive without any BCD at all and use a DSMB for surface-flotation.
 
Definitely not for me. The current dual option and redundancy of power inflation and/or oral inflation on a BC or BP/W along with fully manual dumping makes the current system far less likely to fail in my opinion.

Also, I didn't read this entire thread but I also wonder how this system would work with a drysuit.
 
Ok, I watched their video. Some video critiques are below.

Seems like you need this plus a BC for the surface, depending on how low to the water you are comfortable with, given the limited buoyancy range and delay to pump in the ballast that your suit will lose at depth.

The pro is you can use water to compensate for your suit's surface puffiness and later add more to replace air weight as the dive progresses. And the system buoyancy does not vary with depth, though your suit will.

You do not need to start heavy by your air weight and suit compression weight. But past that I'm not seeing the huge weight advantage between a diver rigged with this vs the same diver with a tropics PB/W.

Plus it seems you need to be exact on your weighting, given the limited swing you have after accounting for gas loss. Vacation divers are not good at knowing their weighting.

Within those limits, interesting and could be fun. Though the same properly weighted in a tropics suit and BC doesn't pose many buoyancy issues anyway and shooting up and down in the water column is not very wise.

If we get you properly weighted in the tropics, you can use this cool system, which you don't really need at that point. :)

There are some pros:
- Less need to dump or cork as approach surface, particularly in no suit or a thin tropical one.
- Limits the corking force to the expansion of your wetsuit, assuming you don't dump your ballast.
- Limits the yo-yo ing at depth from diving like a sea horse to your legs getting tired, not gas expanding/contracting and you over compensating with the BC as well. Unless you dump the water ballast and have to slowly pump back up as you float up to the surface.

Some video critiques:

- In looking only at tidal volume, they are skipping residual inhalation and exhalation volumes.
- Not all BCDs require extra weight just to sink, such as a back plate, like their system uses..
- A 5' depth change does not cause anywhere near the volume (or even area) change they show in their image.
- BC is to deal with wetsuit completion; read most any book on diving for that.
- You do not keep that neutral buoyancy at depth "even if you are diving very heavy wetsuits".
- They touch on lung control, but without saying shifting the tidal volume point up and down within the residual volumes.

- On malfunctions and diver errors:
- - Many divers will still need weights, and loss of them will have the same effect.
- - Stuck power inflator is on issue, yes.
- - They touch on the diver error of fully dumping a normal BC at depth and sinking to depth, but not of diver fully purging ballast and rising irrevocably to the surface

- "It eliminates the problem of overweighting." HOW?? For it to work, it requires that you not be overweighted. And the dive crew and experience team might ensure that. But not the gear system itself.

About 2 lb of water for one minute of pump use.

They keep saying lighter coming out after the dive. That would seem only the buoyancy shift of your wetsuit, which is not much for the tropics.

I think it is cool within its ballast range, realizing an apparent operator error risk exists of dumping all your ballast that can only be slowly re-added. And thus rising to the surface, whether you really meant to or not.

They need to be more precise in describing it and its limits, several of their slides are visually misleading. That leaves a very bad impression.

Edited for a bit of clarity.
 
Seems like you need this plus a BC for the surface, given the limited buoyancy range and the need to pump in the ballast that your suit will lose at depth.

I'm not seeing the huge weight advantage between a diver rigged with this vs the same diver with a tropics PB/W. I get that you can replace air weight with water weight as the dive progresses, so do not need to start heavy by your air weight.

Plus it seems you need to be exact on your weighting, given the limited swing you have after accounting for gas loss. Vacation divers are not good at knowing their weighting.

Within those limits, interesting and could be fun. Though the same properly weighted in a tropics suit and BC doesn't pose many buoyancy issues anyway and shooting up and down in the water column is not very wise.

If we get you properly weighted in the tropics, you can use this cool system, which you don't really need at that point. :)

There are some pros:
- Limits the corking force to the expansion of your wetsuit, assuming you don't dump your ballast.
- Limits the yo-yo ing at depth from diving like a sea horse to your legs getting tired, not gas expanding/contracting and you over compensating with the BC as well. Unless you dump the water ballast and have to slowly pump back up as you float up to the surface.
So instead of pumping up and draining your BCD (or wing) with air, you pump this up with water or drain it. But it costs way more, has much more limited range and uses complex stuff.

Am I missing something? How has this solved any buoyancy adjustment issues?
 

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