Integrated octopus and a standard octopus?

[halocline]

As its been mentioned. Incident reports from BSAC do not support the myth every OOG diver will go for the one in your mouth. The reports show divers do (mainly) what they were trained to do.

My experience is that OOA divers (twice) have gone for the regulator in my mouth. One of these was a divemaster trainee who got a little confused and panicked during an attempt to demonstrate an OOA drill. The irony was evident; even someone with supposedly advanced training, tasked with demonstrating this training by reaching for an octo in the "golden triangle", got nervous and simply grabbed what she saw, a working 2nd stage in use by another diver.

And many divers are not well trained, so predicting their behavior when they are in an emergency situation is even more problematic. But, imagine what an OOA/panicked diver truly wants, which is AIR, NOW!! Now imagine what he/she sees when looking at another diver. It doesn't take much to see the inevitability that many, if not every one, of these divers are likely to grab the 2nd stage currently in use. It is absolutely the simplest solution to their immediate problem.

In this sense the octo/inflator is part of the way towards being a decent concept. However, since these things are typically used within standard recreational set ups, with the primary 2nd stage on a short hose, the air-sharing is with a hose far too short to be practical. All it takes is getting yanked around once by a flailing, out of control diver to understand the absurdity of sharing air on a 28" hose. And then, as you mentioned, the confusion of buoyancy control and breathing from the same device can quickly become a problem.

Diver training and recreational diving can get away with less-than-ideal air sharing practices because OOA emergencies are pretty rare, and most divers will never encounter one.

 

[tbone1004]

and those that BSAC writes about are written with an agenda in mind, sorry bud, but the reports they publish don't hold water with real world experience. I have had my regulator yanked from my mouth more than once, I have never had someone fumble around to try to grab the secondary. It's truly an idiotic way to dive because if you are in proper buddy position and in proper trim, it is literally impossible to see the secondary where BSAC puts it. I'm not going to rant on how much of an imbecile the higher ups of BSAC are for being stuck in this rut though. They are very biased, and have a very specific agenda with both the incident reports and their training methods and can't see past the end of their own nose. If you don't recognize GUE as a training agency, something is SERIOUSLY messed up. It also doesn't allow YOU as a diver to access your secondary if for some reason it starts acting up. Doubles with a first stage failure, singles with debris caught in the exhaust manifold where it starts breathing wet, etc etc. Now YOU have to fumble around while you can't breathe off of your primary to look for it, vs looking down. Anyone who can't see that as a better configuration is drowning in the Kool-aid. Mini-rant over

Anyway to the OP. I don't like the Zeagle normal inflators because the power inflate button is on the "outside" of the diver. The third one that I posted is truly the best, and if you have your hand on the inflator the whole time, which you're supposed to unless you are using your left and for some specific activity. With that bottom inflator, during normal use you have access to the power inflate button via your index finger, and to deflate when at the surface you simply rotate your hand and hit the oral inflate button with your index finger. To inflate with the right hand, you just grab the assembly and hit it with your thumb. This is the standard inflator used by all technical divers with anything from bare hands up to mittens and dry gloves with no real issue. I suggest grabbing this inflator from DGX for $15, and swapping it with the one you currently have before you spend real money on an equipment solution to a skills problem

 

[Edward3c]

and those that BSAC writes about are written with an agenda in mind, sorry bud, but the reports they publish don't hold water with real world experience. I have had my regulator yanked from my mouth more than once, I have never had someone fumble around to try to grab the secondary. It's truly an idiotic way to dive because if you are in proper buddy position and in proper trim, it is literally impossible to see the secondary where BSAC puts it. I'm not going to rant on how much of an imbecile the higher ups of BSAC are for being stuck in this rut though. They are very biased, and have a very specific agenda with both the incident reports and their training methods and can't see past the end of their own nose. If you don't recognize GUE as a training agency, something is SERIOUSLY messed up. It also doesn't allow YOU as a diver to access your secondary if for some reason it starts acting up. Doubles with a first stage failure, singles with debris caught in the exhaust manifold where it starts breathing wet, etc etc. Now YOU have to fumble around while you can't breathe off of your primary to look for it, vs looking down. Anyone who can't see that as a better configuration is drowning in the Kool-aid. Mini-rant over
...

Did you not read BSAC accept GUE training.

 

[tbone1004]

i did not see this, earlier this year, but glad they have. Either way, their OOG scenario is archaic and not realistic in a panicked diver despite everything they will continue to publish about it

 

[Bob DBF]

Everyone's experience is different, so it does color what one sees as problems.

Over the years I have used a double hose, single hose no safe second, single hose with safe second, the dreaded reg and octo/inflater, and now a longer (40") hose and bungeed backup. The only configuration I have not emergency shared with, is the last.

The first three configurations I had the majority of the shares as it paralleled the slow adoption of the SPG. I've been mugged for a reg twice, both on single hose and neither diver was with our party. Also the muggers came from behind so I was supprised when it happened, if they were in view it was easy to shove a reg in their mouth (artistic license), if they did not ask politely.

In all cases, including with the octo/inflator, the air shares worked even though it may not have been optimal. If you are farmiliar with your gear and procedures it will work, but it is only half of the equation, once you are dealing with a diver on the edge of panic, all the pretty drills with your buddy are out the window, regardless of your gear configuration.

Training in buddy breathing, prior to octos, included controlling the OOA diver so the situation did not just change who was OOA, and calming the diver down for the ascent. This was done close, 30" to 34" hose,and face to face where you have as much control over his gear as he does.

I have wondered about giving a 7' hose to a OOA diver, with a trained cave diver it's not a big deal, but a panicked OW diver who heads to the surface with it, he's got quite an edge on the buoyancy front, especially if he is overweighted and has a nice big bubble in his BC.

These days you may never see an OOA emergency, and if you do the standard configuration is two second stages, of one sort or another, which can handle two divers easily. Any configuration will work If you make sure your gear is always working and stowed properly, keep air in your tank for a knucklehead, and practice with a buddy to keep up your skills.

Good Luck

Bob
-------------
Diving the gear I choose.

 

[2airishuman]

Is it pointless to have an integrated octopus and a standard octopus? I like the inflator buttons on the integrated octopuses more than the standard power inflators, plus as long as it doesn't free flow it should not be a negative right? Or am I wrong?

Well, your dive, your equipment choices, but it's not a configuration I would dive. I have a standard "K" inflator, with my secondary reg on a necklace bungee.

The integrated octo will:
- require annual service
- be incompatible with standard BC hoses
- use a BC hose that is incompatible with standard SMBs, lift bags, etc.
- be bulkier and needlessly clutter up a busy area on your rig
- be problematic to repair or replace in the field in the event of a stuck button, etc.