Well, can you do a full mask clear 10 times on a single breath? In my class you will. (If I still taught recreational classes anyway).
Why in the world would you require this? Please explain how that skill would make you a better/safer diver?
Instructors steering students to one agency or another?
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Why in the world would you require this? Please explain how that skill would make you a better/safer diver?
ScubaInChicago
Contributor
Actually, standards are just a check list. If there is any difference from one agency to the other at the open water level then it will be in how *long* certain things have to be done. For example certain skills are timed for X number of seconds. If in one system you have to do the same skill for a longer period of time than in another then you could say that one agency's standards are lower.
Likewise if one agency requires a particular skill and another agency does not. For example, if in one system you are required to teach the student finning technique and in another system you are not, then there is a real differnece in standards.
For the rest, all of the skills and things you need to do with students in open water are pretty much the same across all of the agencies.
- All agencies require "mastery" of a given set of skills
- All agencies define mastery in pretty much the same way
- All agencies' set of skills for Open water, with the exception of UTD and maybe one or two other niche players are virtually identical.
And as I said, standards are pretty much just a check list. In all agencies that I know of the standards state WHAT the instructor has to do, but not HOW.
So notwithstanding the possible differences I mentioned above, if an instructor is shuffling a student to what he believes is an easier system, then I would submit that the instructor in question probably doesn't know understand what he is supposed to be doing.
R..
ScubaInChicago
Contributor
This thread seems to be talking about the FUEY's, UTD's, Inner Space Explorers vs. other agency that define "master" slightly differently.
Actually, they don't
In educational theory, to "Master" a skill is a very specific term. In terms of scuba diving it boils down to being able to perform a skill
- repeatedly
- correctly
- fluidly
The difference isn't in the definition of "Mastery". The difference is in the interpretation of "fluidly". It's a judgement call on the part of the instructor and therein lies the rub.
This difference doesn't only exist between agencies but also between instructors, and it can (and does) drift.
All instructors, regardless of agency, are "calibrated" during their instructor training to understand what the agency thinks is good enough in terms of a skill being "fluid". All instructors will eventually "drift" off of that calibration as they teach. Some will drift toward finding things "fluid" (or fluid enough) that the agency would not think are good enough, and some instructors will tend to drift to finding things that the agency finds "fluid" to be under par.
Few, in my experience, seem to hold their "calibration" for very long after they start teaching actively. A year, maybe two, no more.
This drift away from calibration is also the very root of every single discussion we have about standards, and the reason why people say "it's the instructor, not the agency".
A good example of this is what Superlyte was saying earlier in this thread. His agency's standards for fluent mask clearing do not state that you have to be able to clear the mask 10 times in a row on one breath. He has drifted well off of his "calibration" on this point and he personally believes that it is important to be able to do this. When an instructor drifts to the "higher" end, it seems to make people think that they are somehow "better" because they are more demanding. I don't know if this is always true, but I tend to hold this opinion myself (as I'm also one of those instructors who tends to drift--and I believe for good reason--toward being more demanding).
Educational theorists would probably conclude that drift in either direction is unintended and unwelcome but if it were my child taking lessons, I'd want a "superlyte" as opposed to a 'super-lazy' to be teaching them!
All this is to say that it's not as cut and dry as it all sounds/looks, because where the rubber meets the road, the delivery of courses is hardly ever (in the case of experienced instructors at least) what the agency *actually* intended.
Why agencies don't periodically "recalibrate" their instructors is a mystery to me, but they don't. I think the costs are probably prohibitive.
R..
Interesting that UTD was singled out above.
Here are their standards--the open water class starts on page 35: http://www.utdinternational.com/webclasses/pdf/UTD_standards_v3_2d.pdf
If you compare them to other agencies, you will see that they include some things other agencies do not include, but they omit things that other agencies include, notably CESA/emergency ascents.
Here is what they believe will be required in terms of time to complete the course:
So how different is that?
Here are their standards--the open water class starts on page 35: http://www.utdinternational.com/webclasses/pdf/UTD_standards_v3_2d.pdf
If you compare them to other agencies, you will see that they include some things other agencies do not include, but they omit things that other agencies include, notably CESA/emergency ascents.
Here is what they believe will be required in terms of time to complete the course:
1. A total of 3-4 days of work
2. A total of 24 hours of total instruction, including all academic instruction, all pool work, and all open water dives.
2. A total of 24 hours of total instruction, including all academic instruction, all pool work, and all open water dives.
a. 3 hours of academic review
b. 3 hours of pool work
c. One skin dive
d. 4 OW dives
b. 3 hours of pool work
c. One skin dive
d. 4 OW dives
So how different is that?
ScubaInChicago
Contributor
I am aware of the GUE course, and I am also aware that not many people take it. It used to be even more comprehensive, but they scaled it down because pretty much no one was taking it.
The home of the GUE course and GUE itself is, of course, Extreme Exposure in High Springs, Florida. Students who take their initial OW course work there have the option of taking the GUE course there, but most of them take the PADI OW course at that shop. They can then switch over to the GUE classes as they progress.
The home of the GUE course and GUE itself is, of course, Extreme Exposure in High Springs, Florida. Students who take their initial OW course work there have the option of taking the GUE course there, but most of them take the PADI OW course at that shop. They can then switch over to the GUE classes as they progress.
ScubaInChicago
Contributor
I'm biased toward PADI personally, I found it very easy to get my certification and start exploring the underwater world. I'm sure others are just as good
---------- Post added December 3rd, 2013 at 11:30 AM ----------
I know FUEY requires it every three years from their instructors, don't know about UTD or ISE.
---------- Post added December 3rd, 2013 at 11:30 AM ----------
I know FUEY requires it every three years from their instructors, don't know about UTD or ISE.
When I was training through UTD, I considered going through their professional route. I saw what would be required of me in terms of paying for multiple IDCs (for each level of instruction, let alone recalibrating) and travelling to get the required training. I realized that there was no way I could ever earn enough through instruction to break even with the amount I would have to pay to become an instructor.
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