Instructor's ethics and dilemas.

[SubMariner]

No offense Dave, but you are coming across as a pyramid info-mercial guy. If you tone it down a bit you may get your point across without sounding like the local Amway salesman.

Some of the points you make are valid. Without a doubt in the PADI world multi-level training is definitely the way to go. The O/W course is THE most expensive course to teach in terms of time, energy and resources. It is also the course that most shops offer as a "lost leader" in ridiculous price wars that have them snapping at each other's throats. Not to mention trying to make up the overhead on nickel-and-diming their students to death on the "add ins".

Yes, conducting multi-level courses works. But you have to forge a good relationship with at least one dive operation to do this. Also, you have to be very marketable as an Instructor. This means you have to be at LEAST an MSDT (Master Scuba Diver Trainer) who has multiple Specialties to offer. This is not con-ed propaganda, it's reality. If you can't offer a lot of Specialties and various levels of training, then you are going to be relegated to OW and certain burn-out.

As it happens we are higher level Instructors: my husband is a Course Director, I'm IDC Staff (with an eye towards MI). Before moving to the US, we earned a very tidy sum working scuba as a "hobby business" (yes, we had "real jobs"). But it came from working with several dive shops, running dive trips, and most importantly, from multi-level training.

So yes, it DOES work if YOU work at it.

Meanwhile, I'd like a little clarification about this part:
"Your luxury live aboard has just anchored in the sand off the Turks and Caicos.Your in 30 feet of water with 83 degree water temperature. a shallow reef is nearby. You prepare your dive float and toss it 10 feet off the stern.."

Who's boat is this? How are you marketing/selling this trip? Some overhead details, please...

~SubMariner~

 

[captdave]

Here we go again!
FIrst of all if your local shop won't work with you (They are Dinosaurs) Now is as good as anytime to make good money as a scuba instructor. There at literally dozens of shops that will..you DO NOT HAVE to have a local shop to work with..I own a shop and would love to have you work with me..I know a shop in Mexico that will give you class room pool facilities dive masters instructors etc.I also have these available for any instructor free of charge. Just sell my equipment is all I ask, and I will give you a top commission.. All live aboards have these services available to you..
Logistics,,Logistics..Logistics.. This is the key..Let me explain further.. I should be charging you all big money for this information maybe some time down the road you will work with me or sell equipment to your students from my shop or my on line scuba catalog http://www.diveremporium.com

The point is there is two ways to teach scuba:

LOW TICKET AND HIGH TICKET!
1.Low ticket logistics= Cold water,Thick wetsuits lots of weight,surface swims no restrooms,low vis, emergency equipment 10 minutes away, possible overheating, possible hypothermia,surf exits,lost equipment hard to retrieve.etc.etc.etc.

2. High ticket logistics=Warm water, lycra suits,low weights,food served, emergency equipment seconds away,100 foot visiblity,great underwater scenery, extra dive equipment seconds away, showers to rinse off, one step entry,no float towing,easy to retrieve lost equipment,backup instructor,crew available to assist.

If diving is hard many of your students will not like it.Introduction to diving must be easy fun and your students, all of them must love it. If they do chances are they will keep doing it WITH YOU makeing it easy for you as you don't have to go out and find so many new students..

The cafeteria style of training students is stupid makes nobody any money and produces less than adequately trained divers.

I know what your thinking: This sounds real good but none of my students can afford it or they can get it cheaper in my local shop

DONT YOU BELIEVE this. it is just plain WRONG!

True, The Turks and Caicos,,Grand Cayman, Hawaii, Australia, Belieze, Cozumel,The Sea of Cortez,The Bahamas,
Roatan,Palau,IS MORE EXPENSIVE! That is just what you want.
People get into this because they have seen the TV Pictures of these exotic dive vacations..Not to dive a Quarry.

Just because you think something is expensive does not mean they think it is expensive..I have had to fight some of my instructors to ask for $500 up front deposits because they thought this was too much. It is not too much and it is non-refundable as well..

TO many people $3000.00 for a week of safe fun and adventure is cheap. People spend this every day for adventure travel,ecological trips, and yes even scuba.

If you cannot grasp this concept (GOOD BYE) You will spend your carear teaching budget minded students that want to dive "Cheap" I throw them out of my shop.

This type of "Client" will never allow you the income necessary to explore the great dive sites of the world, You will have to have a real job. or live back in the compressor room to make ends meet. I have done this. Scuba is a great job but living in the shop back room gets old after a while.

Think about all of the people who dive regularly aboard the big live aboard fleets like the Agressor,Peter Hughes livaboards, etc.etc.etc. If people could not afford to dive aboard these expensive fleets then the fleets would be shrinking right! Wrong! They are growing like crazy, in 1984 they started with one boat in less than ten years they expanded to all the great dive spots with 9 boats and they are still growing today and up grading there fleets.

THE MOST EXPENSIVE DIVE SITES ARE THE MOST POPULAR!

There is no shortage of people who can picture themselves diving in style but there is a severe shortage of scuba instructors who can imagine themselves working exclusively with clientel that travels, explores, and dives, and purchases only the best equipment. Equipment that you tell them to buy..

If you believe that a normal class sells from $100-$400 starts in a pool,then travels to the local beach,blue hole, quarry.Then you are destined to be one of the small minded mediocre dive instructors who never gets past the dreaming stage of great diving and then you face the reality get a real job and hate it.

I am sorry if this insults some of you but unless you are brand new you know what i am saying is true. You may be the best technical instructor there is but if you don't get the correct mind setting you will live the dark side of the scuba instructor business..Don't blame me.. I am trying to show you the way..

Lets face it teaching scuba is hard work..Don't you think your services are valuable? Your customers trust you with their lives!!!THen why should you get paid less than a car mechanic,massage therapist,or handyman.

Considering your responsibility and the liability.You are worth the pay of a doctor,lawyer, professor,etc.etc. IF YOU ARE VERY GOOD!

Some of the cert agencies don't like this because they make there money by the numbers..the more students, divemasters,instructrs etc. that get pumped out is how they make their money..Don't get me wrong.. I love all of these agencies they provide us a valuable service but if you follow the traditional system you end up not teaching scuba and they just pump out another one to take your low paid place and as everybody has heard . We do this because we love it. It is a live style and money is not the object!!
BULLROAR! I do this because I want to dive the top sites in the world make great friends and live live the way one is supposed to..
I know this because I have lived both sides of this track!

Should I go On?

 

[Butch103]

I bow to thee and pay homeage...........as a self-employed person since graduating college I also think beyond the norm.....outside the lines..........If you are creative and inovative you can achieve anything....You must live on the "Razors edge". Take a chance...............the world was founded on people taking a chance.

Butch eace:

 

[Belushi]

In reply to Capt Dave's threads.
Dave, what you are saying is true.
But in the real world of diving, (ie those of us in colder climes) the student will not be around for long, because they are all cheapskates!
The classic example is the Dive Shows around the world.
They buy their dive gear at ridiculously low prices on the last day of the show, then get it home to find that after two or three dives, it breaks.
Then what do you do. having bought your dive gear from a shop 400 miles away, you are not going to troop up to the shop to get it fixed.

Then you go to your local dive centre and when he quotes them a price, they then ask for discount for cash!

Do they ask for discount on an airline. Sorry you will have to get off just over the English Channel because you only paid 95% of the fare ... NO.

Instructors who work in and around another's dive shop do it for the love of the sport.

I have been in both positions, where I was an instructor for buttons and a manager for good (!) money. Neither of these was monetarily fulfilling enough to continue with the career.

No one makes money in the dive industry except the "meat factories" of Thailand, Mexico or Florida.

Because no one makes money, all of the good instructors get hacked off and leave the sport.

It hacks me off!

 

[captdave]

Hey Beluisi

I don't think you have been listening to me..It does not matter where you are.. Cold climates are really the best to use this system..What matters is how you aquire the students and where you take them..Again I repeat if you start with cheap students you get no where..I have heard this over and over again about how they run down the prices..IF I get someone who tries this tactic on me I politely tell them they would be more happy diving elsewhere and pass on them. They are not worth your time or effort..
There are many many more students who will be glad to take your advise on what to purchase and what the true value of the equipment is..

The Diving industry has prostituted it self and that really works in our favor as we are the elite of a system that frankly makes it more easy for me to make real money..

I can see you have been on the dark side for too long if your license is still in tact you can do this part time to get started and then after a while you will be able to switch to full time top dollar earning scuba instructor.
Should I go on whith the how and wheres?

 

[Liquid]

Please, the subject here is ethics, not payment.

And as for Ethics-
Captdave, your suggestions are somewhat, in my opinion unethical. Pushing students to further courses and buying equipment too much is unethical. I will never try and sell a student anything I don't really belive he needs. I won't push him to all of these courses if I don't think he needs it. Besides, even if you get 1000 students a year yourself to LDS and teach them, who's to say they will all buy equipment?!

Chances are that maibe 10% of them will buy equipment right after the course.

AS for your second way...
Sorry, but I'm an ethical person, I can't look on my students as milking cows for money. Maibe I'm old-fashioned, and too honest but that's how I am.

Besides, your methods is good only for well known instructors, or instructors that have a lot of equipment to begin with, which makes this way good only for a small part of the instructors.

Sorry, but theses ways are not for me, and in my eyes unethical.

 

[TwoBitTxn]

My two bits,

What it appears to me is captain Dave is looking to cater to the diving crowd that has the money to spend on high end equipment and luxury vacations. I started in scuba as a college PE class simply because I was fascinated by the underwater world. I just got back from a $1500 Cozumel weekend trip that without the bonus check from the US gov. I never would have taken. If everyone became the instructor that he seems to be promoting then scuba will be for the rich and well off. As it is now people on modest incomes can enjoy the sport, I like it this way. I think it benefits diving as a whole to keep costs at a level that more people can dive. Yes there would be more divers if all the training was done in the keys, or Nassau, or bonair, but if that was the rule then we wouldn't have the numbers of divers that we have today. Some may feel that wouldn't be a bad thing.
Subject change....
I was diving with an experienced instructor last weekend and he was asked by someone else in the group "has there been any one you just couldn't teach?" his answer was "Yes, two people, and they were both taking the class to make someone else happy."

Tom

 

[ScubaBaby]

Captdave, I don't believe you can actually call them cheap students....some people dont have masses of cash to go out and spend thousands.

I believe an instructors job is to teach the student what they need to know, advise them on the equipment best suited to them.

All the policies of instructors earning commission on students buying things off them i feel is very unethical...a student trusts there instructors opinion and if the student needs something the dive centre doesnt offer the instructor still feels like he/she has to sell them something the dive club has to make his/her commission - very wrong!

Now I am going to stay quiet and just read...sorry for interupting!

 

[scubakat]

Well... just like not everyone can buy the luxery car, not everyone can go for the luxery SCUBA certification. It doesn't mean that you have purchased a poor or unsafe product.

-kate

ps
Cap'n Dave would have run *ME* out of his shop when I first started this .

 

[Liquid]

Giving comission for selling equipment is somewhat of a problem, but on my opinion it is in the grey area, not really unethical. The problem is how the instructors take it. I know if my student would ask me what's best for him I will give him an honest opinion, even if it's located at the next shop. I think this is the right aproach, mabe not the most income maker, but former students of mine consult me even now that I'm not instructing in those issues.