Instructor vs Solo Cert

[Scuba Scott]

In the context of diving, once you start dealing with dive-shops, dive-boats, etc you'll increasingly run into by-the-book types who demand you follow certain rules no matter how pointless they are. For example, those stupid VIP stickers are a scam. But good luck buying fills without one.

They may be a scam to you but then our stupid rules also don't allow you to be in the area when your rusty tank with an inch of salt water in the bottom of it blows up and kills the operator so there really isn't any risk on your part.
All the stupid rules have been put in place to prevent our customers from damaging our equipment, killing us, killing themselves, or suing us because enough rules were not in place.

As long as lawsuits exist there will be rules. I know this to be true in the US. I also know there are other countries where lawsuits aren't a thing. You may enjoy diving in these countries. I know I do, but I also know I am fully responsible for everything I do or don't do and I am the only person looking out for my safety.

 

[kensuf]

Ok...you got me there... I may not be certified......but I am most definitely certifiable!

I really only want this cert (I guess I should say "card") for warm water land based or liveaboards where they might require it for me to dive solo. My guess is that a lot of boat operations just don't allow Solo because they don't want to deal with back mounted Pony's or Slingers or liability. At least I have a transfill whip now so no worries on pony fills in a place like Bonaire...

Honestly, the whole point for me is just to have the damn card in case someone requires it....and I just don't want to spend the time or money on a course that won't teach me anything. And since I won't be relying on anyone and no one will be relying on me........ and I KNOW for a fact that I am a far more qualified and experienced solo diver than wonder student who's goal is to rack up certification cards with the least amount of dives........ who really cares anyway?

So that leaves me with a new question... What is the typical minimum amount of total dives required to receive a Solo or Self Reliant Diver Cert card? I imagine that it differs a bit by agency but I'll bet it could be as little as 20. Also, do these Solo certs differentiate between being qualified in cold vs warm water?

It's kinda like the whole O2 mafia thing where some can buy it easily and some can't.... and some will sell it with no issues and others act like their dealing with plutonium. But they act like it's all about my safety and their concern for it. In the meanwhile doctors basically give 100% O2 out like candy to dementia induced asthmatic seniors to roll their tanks around the house and down the stairs to the TV room where people are smoking.....and even if these people did receive some basic O2 instruction or paid for an O2 prescription, they've either forgotten it or don't really care anymore anyway. And yes, I totally get that if the old senior ends up lighting his house on fire with the O2 tank being mishandled or misused, then he is putting firefighters and rescuers at substantial risk......but they still give it out like candy anyway.

Also, I can be drunk, stoned, 16 years old with no ID or training and go to a flipp'n gas station and buy all the propane I want and either breath it or blow myself up if I want to and no one cares or feels the need to regulate that.

Now that right there is a bonafide RANT!!!

I think all I really need is a good picture of a Solo or Self Reliant Diver cert card so that I can just fab one up in Photoshop and laminate it onto a blank card. That should get me what I want and relieve any operators from liability!

Cheers!

Here's the problem. Let's say you go out and blow yourself because you were drunk, stoned, 16 years old with no ID or training and go to a flipp'n gas station to buy all the propane. Everyone will say you're just a dumb ass.

But if you go on a boat and they let you dive solo without the training and you kill yourself, there could be a lawsuit coming against the operator.

 

[Cthippo]

But if you go on a boat and they let you dive solo without the training and you kill yourself, there could be a lawsuit coming against the operator.

Anyone know why this is? An element of negligence is duty to care, and if that element is missing then the act cannot be negligent. Why does a dive operator giving you a ride to the dive site and then waiting around for an hour have a duty to care where a water taxi taking you to an island and dropping you on a dock to go explore for an hour does not? I'm really not clear on why dive operators have any liability once you are in the water.

 

[kensuf]

Anyone know why this is? An element of negligence is duty to care, and if that element is missing then the act cannot be negligent. Why does a dive operator giving you a ride to the dive site and then waiting around for an hour have a duty to care where a water taxi taking you to an island and dropping you on a dock to go explore for an hour does not? I'm really not clear on why dive operators have any liability once you are in the water.

Yes. The litigious nature of Americans.

Other countries have the concept of "death by misadventure." We don't seem to have such a thing.

 

[jadairiii]

Here's the problem. Let's say you go out and blow yourself because you were drunk, stoned, 16 years old with no ID or training and go to a flipp'n gas station to buy all the propane. Everyone will say you're just a dumb ass.

But if you go on a boat and they let you dive solo without the training and you kill yourself, there could be a lawsuit coming against the operator.

May I assume you meant to say "blow yourself up"? Because the way it is currently written, I dont know why you need propane?

 

[Vicko]

Yes. The litigious nature of Americans.

I think pretty much everywhere where there is any governmental supervision a tour operator has a duty of care until he brings the divers back to shore.
But only in the Us can you sue him for millions even if he only has hundreds.

 

[NW Dive Dawg]

In the context of diving, once you start dealing with dive-shops, dive-boats, etc you'll increasingly run into by-the-book types who demand you follow certain rules no matter how pointless they are. For example, those stupid VIP stickers are a scam. But good luck buying fills without one.

They may be a scam to you but then our stupid rules also don't allow you to be in the area when your rusty tank with an inch of salt water in the bottom of it blows up and kills the operator so there really isn't any risk on your part.
All the stupid rules have been put in place to prevent our customers from damaging our equipment, killing us, killing themselves, or suing us because enough rules were not in place.

As long as lawsuits exist there will be rules. I know this to be true in the US. I also know there are other countries where lawsuits aren't a thing. You may enjoy diving in these countries. I know I do, but I also know I am fully responsible for everything I do or don't do and I am the only person looking out for my safety.

The issue with VIP's (whether agreed or not that it's a scam) is that it's typically the innocent the guy or gal at the filling station that's gonna get killed or hurt.....

A solo diver is for the most part only risking his/her own personal bacon and not violating anyone else's rights. The exception of course is that an unprepared, untrained or improperly equipped solo diver may end up putting rescue or recovery personnel at risk......... but then that's 100% true of absolutely ANY diver who dives beyond their abilities, training or equipment limitations....regardless of whether they have a "card" or not

And it's always interesting to me when I read posts from some of the sanctimonious (always by the book) folks who use transfill whips to avoid the hassle and expense of VIPs and even Hydro's. It's like they choose which rules to get on their soap boxes about and which rules to ignore....... and the bottom line is that there really are not any rules for divers...just rules enforced by operators, business owners, equipment and gas providers.

Here's the problem. Let's say you go out and blow yourself because you were drunk, stoned, 16 years old with no ID or training and go to a flipp'n gas station to buy all the propane. Everyone will say you're just a dumb ass.

But if you go on a boat and they let you dive solo without the training and you kill yourself, there could be a lawsuit coming against the operator.

Totally agree.... That's why I want "the card". Not the training or experience because I already have that, JUST THE CARD. That way I get what I want and the operator is covered for liability just exactly the same as they are covered by any diver who presents any cert card...

 

[Cthippo]

A lot of that comes down to the lack of any other enforcement mechanism against businesses. If the police see you commit a crime they can stop you from doing so on the spot, and arrest you if need be. In most countries if a business commits a crime there is a governmental organization who can immediately stop those actions and bring criminal charges against the business. In the US, even government regulators have to sue businesses to force them to comply with the law. If you are a scammer and the Federal Trade Commission catches you at it, they cannot arrest you, they have to go to court and sue to convince a judge that you should be stopped. Instead of having law enforcement agencies that act on the behalf of citizens to enforce the law, the only avenue of redress in the US for most things is civil suit.

I enjoy watching UK true life medical shows and on one a truck's brakes failed resulting in a collision that killed two other motorists. It was found in the investigation that the truck's brakes had not been maintained and that the driver and owner both knew they were unrelaible. As a result, both the driver and the owner of the company ended up in prison. This would never happen in the US. The driver might be arrested and the business might be fined, but no action would be taken against the owner. The fine would most likely be paid by insurance and while they might have to close that business, they would be free to re-open under another name next week. The only recourse the families of the victims would have is to sue because the government cannot and will not act on their behalf.

 

[kensuf]

May I assume you meant to say "blow yourself up"? Because the way it is currently written, I dont know why you need propane?

I was pretty much quoting the OP word for word in the post I replied to.

 

[kensuf]

Totally agree.... That's why I want "the card". Not the training or experience because I already have that, JUST THE CARD. That way I get what I want and the operator is covered for liability just exactly the same as they are covered by any diver who presents any cert card...

I don't know about how you roll, but I won't an issue a c-card to someone that I haven't done the training with.