Instructor diver mysterious death
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vladimir
The Voice of Reason
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I don't think this death is any more "mysterious" to us than any other where an ignorant press relies on quotes from ignorant people to try to piece together an incident. There were apparently 3 witnesses to the events leading to the man's death. Until such time as their accounts become public, any speculation is not going to gain any insight into this specific incident, though it could perhaps be instructive as to the general risks associated with such dives.
Hatul, how does one die of nitrogen narcosis? It can, of course, contribute to a diver's death, but I don't think it is a likely proximal cause of death.
Hatul, how does one die of nitrogen narcosis? It can, of course, contribute to a diver's death, but I don't think it is a likely proximal cause of death.
flots am
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Aside from an active attack, like a stabbing, it doesn't really matter what the tourists did. Each diver is responsible for not doing things underwater that would be extremely dangerous or fatal to themselves. This includes maintaining a safe depth.
There is no way to know what the problem is, given the level of detail in the article, however if the victim's SCUBA tank was available, it would be useful to see if it still had gas remaining in it, and what % of oxygen it contained, and how much Carbon Monoxide (if any).
flots.
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While I am only an entry level tech diver I can try to set a few things straight having taken the time to do some analysis of diver fatalities. Number one from reading the news account linked it is obvious that the reporter has no idea what he is talking about. This is typical. Most of them do not and you can only rely on evidence and eye witness accounts. And has often been proven those are subject to interpretation by the witness themselves.
1 You do not die of nitrogen narcosis. You can from the errors in judgement that can happen with it but going from Wart's view of the vic he would have taken the steps necessary to reduce or eliminate that. Trimix is the first choice, and for some practice built up over time with deep air narcosis management as advocated by some entities. But if he was following strict DIR protocols he would have been on mix appropriate for the dive.
2. The last statement could be taken with a grain of salt if he was with a team of rebreather divers as I believe mixed teams are frowned on by DIR practicioners in many cases. But I'd expect more so in a tech dive of this nature.
3. We do not know the actual dive plan. Obviously if it were a 60 or 90 meter dive deco would have been involved. Therefore he would have been carrying an oxygen tank for deco. Perhaps two stage tanks. One with a travel gas and one with 100%, in addition to his back gas.
4. Based on that he would likely have required at least one gas switch. Errors can and have been made here and can be fatal if a mistake is made and not caught by the diver's teammates. In this case they were not doing switches as they did not require one as the rebeather software would take care of that if I'm not mistaken.
5. That still though does not explain dropping a tank though unless he had unclipped it for some reason to do the switch.
6. Oxtox with teammates not practiced in it (unlikely if these guys were on rebreathers) is usually fatal. Oxtox with teammates out of position to help for some reason (possible if they were on different profiles and the plan was not being adhered to by them) is also pretty much going to be fatal.
7. Trying to put the reg back in his mouth is proper as once the seizure from a tox event stops ( and frankly any seizure) the body's first reaction is to inhale. This is why tox events are often fatal. The seizure ends and the diver inhales two lungs full of water.
8. As to why they did not retrieve the body is anyone's guess. But to most tech divers I have talked with it could be for a number of reasons.
a. What was happening with their units? Some problem not reported?
b. Was there some malfunction? No idea and only they know the answer to that.
c. I don't understand the "returned with their ballons" reference unless it means they shot bags to do their ascent.
d. If so why didn't they send him up with other bags they were carrying? It has been done before.
e. If they were carrying other bags why did they at least not use one to tie off to the body and send it up as a marker with a spool or reel? I'd feel safe in assuming they were carrying them.
f. Why was a recovery effort of more resources not used? No idea. You'd need to question the authorities about that.
9. The family's reaction is clearly out of grief and understandable. But to me this does not look like murder in any way. Errors in judgment surely. But some of those by the victim himself. Leading divers on rebreathers while on open circuit when you do not know the divers in question comes to mind. Maybe he has done this before. If so it would seem to me that a more strict plan would be required especially when it comes to where everyone needs to be and when.
So what does all this mean? Quite likely not a damn thing and the answer could be something totally different and never really found. What we can perhaps do is take some lessons from it. Those will be different for everyone. What I am taking from it is:
1. That my family needs to understand what I am doing when I dive so that if something happens they need to realize that they may never get all the facts.
2. That people die when diving and it does not have to be a tech dive.
3. That maybe a decision I made was responsible for my death. Not the actions or inactions of my teammates
4. That my body may never be recovered.
5. That I had better know who I am diving with and that their training and experience does not guarantee my safety.
6. That I would be smart in not counting on my buddies to bring me back if it would risk their safety
7. That experience is never a substitute for a thorough and complete dive plan when diving with new buddies.
8. That sh!t happens and there are times when nothing is going to prevent that so I better have a contingency plan that includes calling the dive at any time.
Whether this helps or not is up to the individual. But for me just going through these thoughts has helped.
1 You do not die of nitrogen narcosis. You can from the errors in judgement that can happen with it but going from Wart's view of the vic he would have taken the steps necessary to reduce or eliminate that. Trimix is the first choice, and for some practice built up over time with deep air narcosis management as advocated by some entities. But if he was following strict DIR protocols he would have been on mix appropriate for the dive.
2. The last statement could be taken with a grain of salt if he was with a team of rebreather divers as I believe mixed teams are frowned on by DIR practicioners in many cases. But I'd expect more so in a tech dive of this nature.
3. We do not know the actual dive plan. Obviously if it were a 60 or 90 meter dive deco would have been involved. Therefore he would have been carrying an oxygen tank for deco. Perhaps two stage tanks. One with a travel gas and one with 100%, in addition to his back gas.
4. Based on that he would likely have required at least one gas switch. Errors can and have been made here and can be fatal if a mistake is made and not caught by the diver's teammates. In this case they were not doing switches as they did not require one as the rebeather software would take care of that if I'm not mistaken.
5. That still though does not explain dropping a tank though unless he had unclipped it for some reason to do the switch.
6. Oxtox with teammates not practiced in it (unlikely if these guys were on rebreathers) is usually fatal. Oxtox with teammates out of position to help for some reason (possible if they were on different profiles and the plan was not being adhered to by them) is also pretty much going to be fatal.
7. Trying to put the reg back in his mouth is proper as once the seizure from a tox event stops ( and frankly any seizure) the body's first reaction is to inhale. This is why tox events are often fatal. The seizure ends and the diver inhales two lungs full of water.
8. As to why they did not retrieve the body is anyone's guess. But to most tech divers I have talked with it could be for a number of reasons.
a. What was happening with their units? Some problem not reported?
b. Was there some malfunction? No idea and only they know the answer to that.
c. I don't understand the "returned with their ballons" reference unless it means they shot bags to do their ascent.
d. If so why didn't they send him up with other bags they were carrying? It has been done before.
e. If they were carrying other bags why did they at least not use one to tie off to the body and send it up as a marker with a spool or reel? I'd feel safe in assuming they were carrying them.
f. Why was a recovery effort of more resources not used? No idea. You'd need to question the authorities about that.
9. The family's reaction is clearly out of grief and understandable. But to me this does not look like murder in any way. Errors in judgment surely. But some of those by the victim himself. Leading divers on rebreathers while on open circuit when you do not know the divers in question comes to mind. Maybe he has done this before. If so it would seem to me that a more strict plan would be required especially when it comes to where everyone needs to be and when.
So what does all this mean? Quite likely not a damn thing and the answer could be something totally different and never really found. What we can perhaps do is take some lessons from it. Those will be different for everyone. What I am taking from it is:
1. That my family needs to understand what I am doing when I dive so that if something happens they need to realize that they may never get all the facts.
2. That people die when diving and it does not have to be a tech dive.
3. That maybe a decision I made was responsible for my death. Not the actions or inactions of my teammates
4. That my body may never be recovered.
5. That I had better know who I am diving with and that their training and experience does not guarantee my safety.
6. That I would be smart in not counting on my buddies to bring me back if it would risk their safety
7. That experience is never a substitute for a thorough and complete dive plan when diving with new buddies.
8. That sh!t happens and there are times when nothing is going to prevent that so I better have a contingency plan that includes calling the dive at any time.
Whether this helps or not is up to the individual. But for me just going through these thoughts has helped.
Hatul
Contributor
If you're unable to think and say you spit out your reg, you'd drown. So while your final death is a result of cardiac arrest caused by respiratory failure caused by drowning, the underlying cause is still nitrogen narcosis.
The common denominator in underwater deaths is respiratory failure and cardiac arrest, but usually that is not the underlying cause of death.
Adam
Hatul
Contributor
I don't want to distract the thread with another accident but there was a famous cave diver Rob Palmer who died deep diving in the Red Sea on air. While one version is he died of a heart attack if you read the accounts of his death it sounds like narcosis.
Get it wrong and you're dead - Divernet
However, he was later heard discussing with other passengers "the cosy effect of narcosis as it closes around you".
Tim and Jean-Michel say they stopped at 107m, while Mila appears to have gone off on a dive of his own. Rob was last seen below the others, apparently waving them to continue on down.
Adam
Get it wrong and you're dead - Divernet
However, he was later heard discussing with other passengers "the cosy effect of narcosis as it closes around you".
Tim and Jean-Michel say they stopped at 107m, while Mila appears to have gone off on a dive of his own. Rob was last seen below the others, apparently waving them to continue on down.
Adam
"The family of our Ismail Marzouk went yesterday to the Public Prosecutor’s office, filing a report against the British company, Blue O Two, accusing the latter of negligence and absence of industrial safety standards that led to their son’s death." August 26th, 2011 , according to:
Ismail Marzouk’s family call for investigation into their son’s death « 3arabawy
Ismail Marzouk’s family call for investigation into their son’s death « 3arabawy
Jesus. They are getting as bad as the US.
Wonder how many ambulance chasers they have. Next they'll be offering a reward to some idiot to try and retrieve the body and be responsible for someone else's death. Unless the 'breather divers held a gun to the missing divers head they were not at fault.
Stuff happens and there are times when nothing can be done about it.
Wonder how many ambulance chasers they have. Next they'll be offering a reward to some idiot to try and retrieve the body and be responsible for someone else's death. Unless the 'breather divers held a gun to the missing divers head they were not at fault.Stuff happens and there are times when nothing can be done about it.
Jim, the depth level at this site can reach 800 m, there are strong currents and a lot of sharks, only submarine like the dutch C-Explorer 1, 2 or 3 (U-Boat Worx mini submarines - U-Boat Worx) can reach this depth but I'm not sure if there are such submarines operating in the Red Sea.
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