Input on our Accident and Incidents Forum... What do you want? How do you want it?

[sunnyboy]

I was forwarded a note from someone who does accident analysis... only they've stopped calling them "accidents". The whole point of the note was to point out that the word "accident" trivializes the incident as something out of our control. Consequently, I've asked my Google Guru, @sphyon, to assess the impact a change of name would have on the forum. Maybe we need to call it something like "Scuba Incidents", "Scuba Incidents and Injuries" or even "Scuba Incidents, injuries and deaths". I'm sure I would still be keeping "accidents" as a Key Word for the forum. Comments?

I prefer the current title. An accident is just that - no matter what the circumstance (unless some element of criminal intent can later be proven, but that's a different topic). The event (accident, incident, come-to-Jesus moment) is not intentional. I do not think anyone goes diving to get bent or worse. Thus, I find "accident" to be appropriate.

 

[Dizzi Lizzi]

Why do I come here? As a newish diver I come here to learn from others experience. There have been several times that I have realized something that should be basic that somehow I had not picked up on.

Why do I post here? Since I have learned so much in this forum, I decided I needed to share my somewhat trivial “incident” because I knew that I would have benefited from it had I read it prior to my experience. Many times I also post to thank those who are putting themselves out there. It’s kinda scary. I also post condolences here. There often is not an established thread in the Passing's area, and I feel out of place starting one when I don't know the parties.

Mission. To provide a place where information can be disseminated in a productive manner, with the goal of promoting safe diving and education to interested parties.

Meeting needs. I can say in general you are meeting my needs. But…I tune out when the conversation becomes ugly, petty, and rude. Usually a few pages in.

What is missing and why? Courtesy and respect when things get heated. Actually, there is a lot of courtesy out there, it’s just that it is not recognized. Squeaky wheels get recognized.

How can we add that? LOL first thing I think of is “Dream the Impossible Dream”, then realize it’s from Man of La Mancha.

What needs to be eliminated? I would not like anything eliminated.

How can we be more respectful to friends and survivors? I realize that you can’t talk about such a difficult subject without causing grief to family and friends, as well as survivors and witnesses.
I would like a condolence thread imbedded in the conversation if there was a fatality or serious life changing accident. I notice that there can be hundreds of comments in the A&I area, and nothing or few messages left on the “passings” area. This is what frustrates the piss out of me. Maybe it would act as a reminder to those posting that in addition to giving their 2 cents they can give a condolence.

Can we be more respectful without harming our mission? The good news is yes we can be more respectful without harming our mission. The bad news is that its up to each individual to do so. I thank the mods for the thankless job they have, and especially for keeping things on topic.

Currently we don’t allow names to be used unless publicly released . This should stay in place. I think it’s fair for the family, and for us it really doesn’t matter. Why would knowing the name of the person(s) change what you learn.

 

[boulderjohn]

I would like a condolence thread imbedded in the conversation if there was a fatality or serious life changing accident. I notice that there can be hundreds of comments in the A&I area, and nothing or few messages left on the “passings” area.

Is the problem that the "Passings" forum is too far removed from A & I and thus not easily brought to mind? Would it be better to have a "Condolences" thread right next to the A & I thread?

Another idea would be to have a moderator insert a link into the thread that goes to a "Passings" or "Condolences" forum as soon as the name becomes official.

 

[Ken Kurtis]

Would it be better to have a "Condolences" thread right next to the A & I thread.

At the risk of sounding like an insensitive jerk . . . I have never quite understood the usefulness of the "CONDOLENCES" thread nor "condolences to the family" posts that appear in an A&I thread. 99.99% of the time the victim is someone you don't know and it's pretty much 100% assured that you don't know their relatives so how does a post that says "Condolences", from someone THEY don't know, offer any comfort? I would assume that relatives of victims, should they even come here at all, at looking for answers to help make sense of things, not the "condolences" repeated over and over. (And if the victim was someone you knew, hopefully you've contacted the family directly and aren't relying on them to look here for your support.)

That being said, if a relative post here - as they have on occasion - and asks for information or offers some, and you should reply to that, I think leading with "So sorry for your loss" is quite appropriate as at least now there's some connection. But personally, I'd like to eliminate any generic, impersonal "CONDOLENCES" posts.

- Ken (really a sensitive guy at heart)

 

[CuzzA]

The passing thread serves its purpose. It's not uncommon in many forums for similar sports or hobbies that share something in common with the board community.

You can bet loved ones read SB and I doubt it's killing the bandwidth budget for us to show some compassion.

I do appreciate reading first hand stories about the departed rather than the random, "sorry for your loss."

I think if someone wants to offer their condolences or tell stories about the departed the passing thread should be a sub forum under accidents and incidents. Perhaps it would help to seperate the clutter, so to speak.

 

[boulderjohn]

I have never quite understood the usefulness of the "CONDOLENCES" thread nor "condolences to the family" posts that appear in an A&I thread.

That is why we don't want them in the A & I threads and have a separate thread in a separate forum for that purpose.

You are right that many times we don't know the person, so the condolences are meaningless. Sometimes they are meaningful. Check out Lynne Flaherty's thread in the passings forum as an example.

 

[Dizzi Lizzi]

At the risk of sounding like an insensitive jerk . . . I have never quite understood the usefulness of the "CONDOLENCES" thread nor "condolences to the family" posts that appear in an A&I thread. 99.99% of the time the victim is someone you don't know and it's pretty much 100% assured that you don't know their relatives so how does a post that says "Condolences", from someone THEY don't know, offer any comfort? I would assume that relatives of victims, should they even come here at all, at looking for answers to help make sense of things, not the "condolences" repeated over and over. (And if the victim was someone you knew, hopefully you've contacted the family directly and aren't relying on them to look here for your support.)

That being said, if a relative post here - as they have on occasion - and asks for information or offers some, and you should reply to that, I think leading with "So sorry for your loss" is quite appropriate as at least now there's some connection. But personally, I'd like to eliminate any generic, impersonal "CONDOLENCES" posts.

- Ken (really a sensitive guy at heart)

Yeah, I get that not knowing the person can make it seem meaningless. But I knew someone who died diving, his incident was posted here and while the posts that were personal meant more, it didn't hurt anything for those random condolences. It's just nice. And I see how if it was in the post it would seem...fake.

Now for my part, when I say I'm sorry for the family and friends loss, I mean it. Sometimes I just can't read those stories without saying what I feel.

The link idea is good.

 

[lowviz]

...//... But I knew someone who died diving, his incident was posted here and while the posts that were personal meant more, it didn't hurt anything for those random condolences. It's just nice. ...

Agreed. And I'll use that as an excuse to open the door for the naming of names. "I knew someone". What about a local boat goes out with regulars on it and something happens. Nothing is ever said. Was it someone I knew? This forum isn't only about vacation diving where a name is a body without a face.

A name means a lot to local divers...

 

[pasley]

Why do you come here?

To learn from others what went wrong so we do not collectively repeat those errors.

Why do you post accidents and incidents?[/USER]!)

If I do, it is so others can benefit from the experience I gained or observed.

WHAT IS OUR MISSION?

(in your words, please)

To share information with the SCUBA community for the common good with an eye to prevention in the future.

Are we meeting your and the community's needs?

For the most part.

What are we missing and why?

Accidents and Incidents should be very limited in terms of postings and require monitor approval prior to appearing on line.

How can we add that?

dedicated monitor willing to spend way too much time reviewing.

What needs to be eliminated and why?

Limit postings to only the initial report (no names) and after that either official reports or first hand reports of the facts only, not finger pointing, wild ass guesses etc.

As others have stated, I don't want to be insensitive, but...Yes we are all sorry for the loss, but can't we just say at the start of the thread "Our collective condolences to the family and our prayers are with them. 100 such messages change nothing and I sincerely doubt are read by the family in many of the cases. It just makes the knowledge to be gained harder to see. Be more of the just the facts and leave the condolences to those who know the family and can do so by direct message to them.

How can we be more respectful to friends and survivors?

Yes, by not speculating or finger pointing. I would imagine it would hurt to see someone accusing your loved of some error or other who has just passed.

Can we be more respectful without harming our mission?

Yes. by not speculating.

Currently, we don't allow names to be used unless released publicly first. Is this fair for the family? Is it fair for us? Is a change needed?

Yes it is fair for the family. They already know of the passing of their loved one and if they don't reading about it here is the wrong way for them to find out. Once publicly released, well it is out in the public domain and would let those of us who may have met the deceased in passing know of the passing.

 

[JamesBon92007]

At first I was astonished at some of the incidents that I read. One of the first was an incident occurring at Catalina Island (California) where an instructor was seriously injured (I don't think it said in what way) certifying her son as a Master Diver. What astonished me was that she had only (according to the thread) been diving for about a year or so but was somehow qualified to certify someone as a Master Diver. I dunno, that just doesn't make sense to me.
Today I read about someone with a handful of dives wanting to become a DM. Reading these threads does not fill me with a strong sense of confidence.

Perhaps some of these incidents will influence the level of experience required to become an instructor or DM.

Basically I read the Incidents to try to understand what went wrong. In many cases the divers were in situations that I don't ever intend to find myself in (caves etc) but one very sad story was about a group of divers who surfaced and the boat was not there. I supposed that could happen to anybody given the wrong set of circumstances.