Innovation in diving

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The ability to model risk has nothing to do with what is being questioned, nor does how often the model is updated. The discussion hinges on the question of whether appropriate judgement was applied to the interpretation of the risk assessment, and whether an appropriate level of risk was accepted.

The argument being conducted here is circular with no end. You fundamentally disagree with each other on what constitutes an appropriate level of risk.

It is far more basic than that.

I need for Tony to tell me what risk exactly I was incurring that dive that date by not having a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer.

I say there was no risk because I could not have entered into deco at those depths with the available gas (and any other risk/emergency normally encountered in a cave I would have not needed a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer to prevent or resolve it).
 
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No, that was the last day in my dive series for the trip.

The reason why I had to give some extra thoughts about my predicament (i.e. forgetting the electronics...) is because it was incumbent upon me to close the cave down for safety (which required me to go diving to do it)... but I am not making excuses, I did not have to go in 600 meters and dive 75 minutes on scooter with no electronics to close the cave - I did that because it was fun!

So, back to our question Tony.

Have you given it any further thought or are you still driving a total blank?

The question is

Exactly what emergency (i.e. state the emergency) could have been "prevented" (to use your own words) by the Dive Computer/Bottom Timer (which admittedly I did not have breaking Scuba 101 rule) that dive on that day?

You really do not need me to part with information, pertaining to bottom timers, depth gauges and computers, that you should already possess. The reason I quoated the above past post was just to show an example of the importance of tables and computers coupled with a BT, DG and or computer. So you were on a trip and did several dives, over several days, breathing different gases and over long time periods. Correct? So prior to entering the cave for the last dive of the trip, what exactly was your cumulative residual N2, CNS % and OTUs? Now what was your post dive cumulative residual N2, CNS % and OTUs? You really do not know and you never will. Oh, you can guess, just like you guessed everything during that last dive. So you should be able to see my concern and why nobody can answer your repeat over and over and over again question.

For everybody else reading this, at this level of diving, DG, BT and conputers are not just for Deco.! And the sad part is that Gian should know this. From my AWO instructor, "You do not assume or guess **** down there!
 
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You really do not need me to part with information, pertaining to bottom timers, depth gauages and computers, that you should already possess. The reason I quoated the above past post was just to show an example of the importance of tables and computers coupled with a BT, DG and or computer. So you were on a trip and did several dives, over several days, breathing different gases and over long time periods. Correct? So prior to entering the cave for the last dive of the trip, what exactly was your cumulative residual N2, CNS % and OTUs? Now what was your post dive cumulative residual N2, CNS % and OTUs? You really do not know and you never will. Oh, you can guess, just like you guessed everything during that last dive. So you should be able to see my concern and why nobody can answer your repeat over and over and over again question.

For everybody else reading this, at this level of diving, DG, BT and conputers are not just for Deco.! And the sad part is that Gian should know this. From my AWO instructor, "You do not assume or guess **** down there!

The cumulative residual N2, CNS, and OTU... is dildo.

Usually nearly 24 hours elapse between one dive and the next, the average depth is in the region of 13 - 14 meters, if OC I use N32, and on rebreather I use 0.7 Setpoint for 70% - 90% of the dive (deeper than 16 meters I use never more than 1.1 Setpoint).

Furthermore I always take one day off every 2 - 3 days of diving (to rest because I get physically tired cave diving).

You can see my CNS is less than 30% for a 1.5 hour dive from the Dive Computer pics. of the two dives I posted here.

I do not need a Dive Computer to tell me repetitive diving of this type over 2 - 3 days with nearly 24 hours between one dive and the next is inconsequential.

Since you are struggling in articulating exactly why I made a "piss poor decision" that dive that day, can you explain why instead you believe you did NOT make a "piss poor decision" by going cave diving with a rental Primary light :no: ?

Everybody please just give it up in trying to explain anything to Gian. He is simply holding on to a make believe question that truly has no answer for. No one can answer the question that he has because there are so manny things that can happen. It is simply impossible to address them all. i.e. lost line, broken line, silt out, broken DPV, tank o ring failure and losing gas, tangled up in the line (remember that he said about breaking the rule of going under lines), going into an unknown section of the cave (but he will tell you that he knew all of the cave that he went into which BTW is pure BS), DS failure, lost / broken mask, reg. failure, etc. From the videos I have watched, I do not see the various depth and distance marking that he has stated that are there. Please post a video proving me wrong. Now couple all of the different things that could happen with no bottom timer, no depth gauage, solo, in a cave with a DPV and you can draw your own conclusions as to why I said it was a piss poor decision to make the dive.

So Gian simply wants to ask, "what could have a bottom timer and depth gauage done to prevent an emergency." We do not know and will never know. The two items are just tools to make diving safer. So if you want to take chances then you compound everything in caves. Also, I will add that if Gian has done this dive over hundreds of times before, then why the decision to dive it this day? To prove what? Looking at the same stuff that you have seen hundreds of times before? It simply is not worth it.

So if a diver shows up at a dive site, without a bottom timer or depth gauage then you really don't care and dive with them? For an example: Four of us were diving Cow. My light charger failed the night before during charging. We had no idea as to the charge of the light. We decided to go back to the LDS and rent a primary than to take a chance on it going out during the dive. The dive went well and nothing lost or chances taken.

I really don't know who is aware this thread was a branch off from the father and son that died on Christmas in Eagle's nest. But I can tell you that the father and son posted, and I would say bragged, about cave dives that they have done in the past without training. Much like we are seeing here but without proper equipment. You might get away with it once, twice and maybe hundreds of times but rest assure that one day it will bite you in the ass. So you take a small chance and cut corners, break rules written in blood and live to tell about it. What rules will you break tomorrow? Complacency Kills.

"...some night, in the chill darkness, someone will make a mistake: The sea will show him no mercy." John T. Cunningham
 
Simple. The light was charged, functioning properly and provide enough light for the task at hand. And if you need proof then please feel free to contact Bill at Cave Excursions I bet you will find that most cavers know and trust him. Within the team of 4 we also had a primary light each coupled with 2 backup lights as well. I guess we might have taken a great risk if 4 primary and 8 backup lights all failed at the same time. I get goosebumps just thinking about it. I know that does not sound like a lot of light compared to a diver who brings 8 lights just for himself but we tend to not bring extra stuff that is not needed. Anyway, I don't believe your last post anyway. That was a very fast and cheap way out of the question. "Oh, I took the day off."
 
Simple. The light was charged, functioning properly and provide enough light for the task at hand. And if you need proof then please feel free to contact Bill at Cave Excursions I bet you will find that most cavers know and trust him. Within the team of 4 we also had a primary light each coupled with 2 backup lights as well. I guess we might have taken a great risk if 4 primary and 8 backup lights all failed at the same time. I get goosebumps just thinking about it. I know that does not sound like a lot of light compared to a diver who brings 8 lights just for himself but we tend to not bring extra stuff that is not needed. Anyway, I don't believe your last post anyway. That was a very fast and cheap way out of the question. "Oh, I took the day off."

You did not believe the cave I am diving even existed...

Again, I think everything stems back from partly you genetics and in equal part your USMC training.

You seem to think your buddy in a cave will always be there to save you.

You are prepared to compromise your self-sufficiency and depend for your survival on the "team."

In this case you chose to dive as YOUR Primary Light in a cave a rental piece of equipment of which a. you had no idea of its history and b. you had not personally verified the discharge capacity of the battery.

I'd never do that, not even if the lights were my sons (imagine if they were Buffalo Bill's...).

A Primary light (especially in your case since you did not have several on a cave helmet as we tend to do in Europe) is a critically important piece of equipment.

Did you make a "piss poor decision?"

I'd never make that statement about another trained cave diver decision, but I can tell you in trusting "Bill" with a light you had not personally verified you broke a CDG rule stating:

"Purchase primary cells from a trusted source. Regularly run lights flat to check expected duration of rechargeable batteries and efficiency of chargers."
 
You rented a light? Did you know it's burn time? When was it last tested? How do you know it was charged? Did you test it? You trusted someone? And went diving?

Good greif. None of this matters. A super shallow dive that you know super well is nbd just like diving a light that you don't know super well is nbd. Why? Because you know the profile in example 1 and you have backup lights in example 2. None of this is all that wild, really. Everyone knows I would never dive the way Gian does, and we disagree on many many things. But this is ridiculous. It sounds like a peacock springs type dive down the peanut line and back. I don't even look at my gauge on dives like that because it doesn't offer much. Deco is "slow ascent" and bottom time is predicated on what's in my tanks. I carry it on dives like that because I like to know what time it is (park closes), not because it gives me some fancy information that could change my life. It's not a moon landing.

Also, everyone's risk assessment is different. Some people think cave diving is insanity, and other people think 30ft reef diving is crazy. It's all about where you fit on the spectrum. But I don't see anything Gian did as life threatening. Less than Ideal? Sure. But super dangerous omg I can't believe you did that you're gunna die? Uhh...no. Calm down.
 

Signior Dildo

John Wilmot, Earl of Rochester

Edited by Jack Lynch

The poem apparently dates from late 1673, shortly after Mary of Modena arrived in London. It first appeared in print in 1703 in Poems on Affairs of State.

You Ladyes all of Merry England
Who have been to kisse the Dutchesse's hand,
Pray did you lately observe in the Show
A Noble Italian call'd Signior Dildo?
The Signior was one of her Highness's Train [5]
And helpt to Conduct her over the Main,
But now she Crys out to the Duke I will go,
I have no more need for Seignior Dildo.
At the Signe of the Crosse in Saint James's Street,
When next you go thither to make your Selfes Sweet, [10]
By Buying of Powder, Gloves, Essence, or Soe
You may Chance get a Sight of Signior Dildo.
You'l take him at first for no Person of Note
Because he appears in a plain Leather Coat:
But when you his virtuous Abilities know [15]
You'll fall down and Worship Signior Dildo.
My Lady Southesk, Heav'ns prosper her for't,
First Cloath'd him in Satten, then brought him to Court;
But his Head in the Circle, he Scarcely durst Show,
So modest a Youth was Signior Dildo. [20]
The good Lady Suffolk thinking no harm,
Had got this poor Stranger hid under her Arm:
Lady Betty by Chance came the Secret to know,
And from her own Mother, Stole Signior Dildo:
The Countesse of Falmouth, of whom People tell [25]
Her Footmen wear Shirts of a Guinea an Ell:
Might Save the Expence, if she did but know
How Lusty a Swinger is Signior Dildo.
By the Help of this Gallant the Countesse of Rafe
Against the feirce Harris preserv'd her Self Safe: [30]
She Stifl'd him almost beneath her Pillow,
So Closely she imbrac'd Signior Dildo.
Our dainty fine Dutchesse's have got a Trick
To Doat on a Fool, for the Sake of his Prick,
The Fopps were undone, did their Graces but know [35]
The Discretion and vigor of Signior Dildo.
That Pattern of Virtue, her Grace of Cleaveland,
Has Swallow'd more Pricks, then the Ocean has Sand,
But by Rubbing and Scrubbing, so large it do's grow,
It is fit for just nothing but Signior Dildo. [40]
The Dutchesse of Modena, tho' she looks high,
With such a Gallant is contented to Lye:
And for fear the English her Secrets shou'd know,
For a Gentleman Usher took Signior Dildo.
The countess of the Cockpit (who knows not her Name) [45]
She's famous in Story, for a Killing Dame:
When all her old Lovers forsake her I Trow
She'l then be contented with Signior Dildo.
Red Howard, Red Sheldon, and Temple so tall
Complain of his absence so long from Whitehall: [50]
Signior Barnard has promis'd a Journy to goe,
And bring back his Countryman Signior Dildo.
Doll Howard no longer with his Highness must Range,
And therefore is profer'd this Civill Exchange:
Her Teeth being rotten, she Smells best below, [55]
And needs must be fitted for Signior Dildo.
St Albans with Wrinkles and Smiles in his Face
Whose kindnesse to Strangers, becomes his high Place,
In his Coach and Six Horses is gone to Pergo,
To take the fresh Air with Signior Dildo. [60]
Were this Signior but known to the Citizen Fopps
He'd keep their fine Wives from the Foremen of Shops,
But the Rascalls deserve their Horns shou'd Still grow,
For Burning the Pope, and his Nephew Dildo.
Tom Killigrews wife, North Hollands fine Flower, [65]
At the Sight of this Signior, did fart, and Belch Sow'r,
And her Dutch Breeding farther to Show,
Says welcome to England, myn Heer Van Dildo.
He civilly came to the Cockpitt one night,
And profer'd his Service to fair Madam Knight, [70]
Quoth she, I intrigue with Captain Cazzo
Your Nose in myne Arse good Seignior Dildo.
This Signior is sound, safe, ready, and Dumb,
As ever was Candle, Carret, or Thumb:
Then away with these nasty devices, and Show [75]
How you rate the just merits of Signior Dildo.
Count Cazzo who carryes his Nose very high,
In Passion he Swore, his Rivall shou'd Dye,
Then Shutt up himself, to let the world know,
Flesh and Blood cou'd not bear it from Signior Dildo. [80]
A Rabble of Pricks, who were welcome before,
Now finding the Porter deny'd 'em the Door,
Maliciously waited his coming below,
And inhumanely fell on Signior Dildo.
Nigh weary'd out, the poor Stranger did fly [85]
And along the Pallmall, they follow'd full Cry,
The Women concern'd from every Window,
Cry'd, Oh! for Heavn's sake save Signior Dildo.
The good Lady Sandys, burst into a Laughter
To see how the Ballocks came wobbling after, [90]
And had not their weight retarded the Fo
Indeed 't had gone hard with Signior Dildo.

P.S. I am Italian :D
 
...and any other risk/emergency normally encountered in a cave I would have not needed a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer to prevent or resolve it.

If you truly believed that, you would never use a computer or bottom timer. If you don't need it, why do you ever carry it?

Pure nonsense.
 
You did not believe the cave I am diving even existed...

Again, I think everything stems back from partly you genetics and in equal part your USMC training.

You seem to think your buddy in a cave will always be there to save you.

You are prepared to compromise your self-sufficiency and depend for your survival on the "team."

In this case you chose to dive as YOUR Primary Light in a cave a rental piece of equipment of which a. you had no idea of its history and b. you had not personally verified the discharge capacity of the battery.

I'd never do that, not even if the lights were my sons (imagine if they were Buffalo Bill's...).

A Primary light (especially in your case since you did not have several on a cave helmet as we tend to do in Europe) is a critically important piece of equipment.

Did you make a "piss poor decision?"

I'd never make that statement about another trained cave diver decision, but I can tell you in trusting "Bill" with a light you had not personally verified you broke a CDG rule stating:

"Purchase primary cells from a trusted source. Regularly run lights flat to check expected duration of rechargeable batteries and efficiency of chargers."

1) I still can't find Turtle's Nest but I do believe that it is a cave.
2) I still have no idea as to why you keep refering to the Marine Corps. I was not a Marine Corps' diver. I was in avaition.
3) I do trust my team and my team does trust me. If i can't trust someone, I simply don't dive with them.
4) I never do any, any dive that I cannot or will not dive solo.
5) Yes I trusted Bill. And I will in the future. Since you have not been to Cave Country in Fla. you really do not know the upkeep and service of the equipment that the dive shops there maintain. In cave country it is not unusual to see teams from Russia, Japan, Germany, Norway, Italy, China, etc that travel there without some equipment due to weight and travel cost. Divers from around the world depend and rely on the rental equipment there. This is from Amigo's Dive Center: "2013 was a great year for Amigos: For the sixth straight year we added over 500 customers and are now up to 4,500 divers in our touch-screen computer. This includes visitors from all 50 states and 74 countries, including India, Peru, Galapagos (Ecuador) and Vietnam. Thanks to everyone for your continued support." Amigos Dive Center: Nitrox, Oxygen and Trimix Fills The trust displayed in Cave Country is unmatched by any place I have ever been. So, yes I trust Bill, Wayne, TJ and others but I usually bring my own gear. On a side note, trusting gear I rented with three other team members with their own gear is in no way the same as diving without the gear solo.
6) I agree with you! I just got 2 Bigblue VL1800's for video. I read the instructions, charged them up and did a burn test prior to diving with them.

So now we have discussed lights. Care to talk about drysuits, double bladders, etc?

In a nut shell we have you doing a dive without any means of counting for depth or bottom time. OK, not problems here. Your life, your dive. You diving without a means of counting for depth and bottom time and posting about where we have new divers reading about it is another situation all together.

---------- Post added February 1st, 2014 at 07:16 PM ----------

You rented a light? Did you know it's burn time? When was it last tested? How do you know it was charged? Did you test it? You trusted someone? And went diving?

Good greif. None of this matters. A super shallow dive that you know super well is nbd just like diving a light that you don't know super well is nbd. Why? Because you know the profile in example 1 and you have backup lights in example 2. None of this is all that wild, really. Everyone knows I would never dive the way Gian does, and we disagree on many many things. But this is ridiculous. It sounds like a peacock springs type dive down the peanut line and back. I don't even look at my gauge on dives like that because it doesn't offer much. Deco is "slow ascent" and bottom time is predicated on what's in my tanks. I carry it on dives like that because I like to know what time it is (park closes), not because it gives me some fancy information that could change my life. It's not a moon landing.

Also, everyone's risk assessment is different. Some people think cave diving is insanity, and other people think 30ft reef diving is crazy. It's all about where you fit on the spectrum. But I don't see anything Gian did as life threatening. Less than Ideal? Sure. But super dangerous omg I can't believe you did that you're gunna die? Uhh...no. Calm down.

I did not do the OMG that is an invite for a super danger situation, you are gunna die, etc. I said the I felt that he made a piss poor decision and I still do. You are saying the same thing but you call it less than ideal. And since we are talking about a cave we both know, Peanut chut is one thing but add the distance Gian went and tell me that you would do Peanut without a computer, timer or DG.
Went in 600 meters, then back out 400 meters, then back in 200 meters, then back out 200 meters, then recovered the jump line, then around and about here and there within 250 meters of the entrance, then went exploring a line the very last bit (leading to a small dry chamber) I never dared to follow before with the rebreather due to size/buoyancy considerations, and then got out (having had more fun than if I had done my otherwise planned exploration rebreather dive for the day).

600 meters + 200 meters + 250 meters = 1050 meters = 3444.88 feet

Doing the jump into an unknown section of the cave would be like doing a lot of distances and then deciding, having never been there before to do the jump to Waterhole. I still believe that it was a piss poor decision. It was even more of a piss poor decision to post on a forum about it.
 

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