Innovation in diving

[PfcAJ]

At the minimum, Gian is making a better argument than tony. Tony isn't answering his question , and a solid answer would put a stop to this whole thing.

 

[victorzamora]

First of all, I'm NOT going to get properly dragged into this.

Secondly, a good sentance to describe it is as follows: Just as equipment is not an acceptable substitute for appropriate skill and experience, skill and experience are not an acceptable substitute for appropriate equipment.

Third, and most important, I'm not saying you were on the verge of dying on a normal dive. My point is that the attitude displayed is one I take an issue with. You were NOT right to make that dive. Were you wrong? I need further information on that one.

---------- Post added January 30th, 2014 at 03:28 PM ----------

At the minimum, Gian is making a better argument than tony. Tony isn't answering his question , and a solid answer would put a stop to this whole thing.

There have actually been a few good points, all dismissed by Gian instantly. One of them is the 16m (or 18m?) section he was in. Had his scooter have died there, at the back of it, 60ft is enough to add to your nitrogen loading significantly. Gian dismissed it with, "Not really" and then continued. At least MY point isn't that a computer would've saved his life, but an attitude that allows him to realize that scrubbing the dive would've been wise could.

 

[tursiops]

You were NOT right to make that dive. Were you wrong?

Reminds me of the famous review of a physics paper written by a colleague: "It's not right. It's not even wrong."

 

[PfcAJ]

As I understood it the average was 16m with a max of 18 (could be wrong), and the distance short. Maybe Gian can clarify?

 

[victorzamora]

Reminds me of the famous review of a physics paper written by a colleague: "It's not right. It's not even wrong."

Hahaha, I just think people don't realize that "correctness" isn't binary. To quote The Big Bang Theory (tv show), "It's a little wrong to call a tomato a vegetable. It's very wrong to call it a suspension bridge." You also don't have to be right if you're not wrong. Early into dating, I told my wife that I was never wrong. She asked how many dimples were on a golfball. I told her that I didn't know. I didn't answer it correctly, but I wasn't wrong, either.

AJ: That must have been where I got my 16m/18m confusion from. Either way, cave surveys aren' always clear about whether they're surveying the line or the cave. They also don't survey precisely every few feet. They've got a point that they survey, and then another a few hundred feet away. I know you know this, I'm just saying that the whole "16m avg/18m max" is a guess. Isn't it? Also, he got there on his CCR...right? If he was running a lower setpoint (like 0.7) he could've incurred quite a bit of nitrogen ongassing. That, mixed with guessing wrong or misremembering depths or disorientation could've caused a deeper average depth. Had he have had a reason to be stuck deeper, towards the end of his dive (even 18m, not including any inaccuracies) he could've really added to his nitrogen loading. Especially on the second dive, these could have come in to play.

I'm not saying that he was LIKELY to encounter an issue. I'm saying it's possible.....and that a continued attitude of arrogance could be one to lead to poor results. So, like I said, he was definitely not in the RIGHT to do the dive.....but he survived it so he wasn't "wrong" to do it.

 

[gianaameri]

As I understood it the average was 16m with a max of 18 (could be wrong), and the distance short. Maybe Gian can clarify?

The average depth is 12 meters and max. depth is 18 meters.

The 18 meter section waypoint to waypoint runs 8 meters.

That is for the dive with no electronics - that dive that day.

If my scooter broke at 600 meters and I had lost/broken both masks and Victor and Tony (unbeknown to me) went into the cave and silted up the whole 600 meters I would have had enough gas to make an exit swimming and no frigging chance to have gone into deco using N32 on that run.

Now, next time I go diving there for more than 4 days in a row (don't hold your breath as it may not be before Easter) on the last day of the dive I will do the same run on scooter and post the picture of the Dive Computer screen with Depth and Time.

How is that?

If you look at the pics. of the very last two dives I posted here, notwithstanding I stayed exploring a not insignificant amount of time at 18+ meters in the last two dives (not the dive done without electronics), the average depth was 11.66 meters and 13.01 meters respectively.

How can anyone get into deco OC using N32 with 2 x 18 ltr. tanks at an average depth of 12 meters (or even 13.01 meters)?

---------- Post added January 30th, 2014 at 04:18 PM ----------

Hahaha, I just think people don't realize that "correctness" isn't binary. To quote The Big Bang Theory (tv show), "It's a little wrong to call a tomato a vegetable. It's very wrong to call it a suspension bridge." You also don't have to be right if you're not wrong. Early into dating, I told my wife that I was never wrong. She asked how many dimples were on a golfball. I told her that I didn't know. I didn't answer it correctly, but I wasn't wrong, either.

AJ: That must have been where I got my 16m/18m confusion from. Either way, cave surveys aren' always clear about whether they're surveying the line or the cave. They also don't survey precisely every few feet. They've got a point that they survey, and then another a few hundred feet away. I know you know this, I'm just saying that the whole "16m avg/18m max" is a guess. Isn't it? Also, he got there on his CCR...right? If he was running a lower setpoint (like 0.7) he could've incurred quite a bit of nitrogen ongassing. That, mixed with guessing wrong or misremembering depths or disorientation could've caused a deeper average depth. Had he have had a reason to be stuck deeper, towards the end of his dive (even 18m, not including any inaccuracies) he could've really added to his nitrogen loading. Especially on the second dive, these could have come in to play.

I'm not saying that he was LIKELY to encounter an issue. I'm saying it's possible.....and that a continued attitude of arrogance could be one to lead to poor results. So, like I said, he was definitely not in the RIGHT to do the dive.....but he survived it so he wasn't "wrong" to do it.

Victor,

I always use Setpoint of 0.7 on CCR and switch to Setpoint of 1.1. at about 16 meters before heading for the deeper part of the cave and when I go back at 16 meters towards the shallower section I switch back to 0.7 pPO2.

My dive on CCR in that cave is done for the most part on a 0.7 setpoint (now the dive I did with no electronics was with no rebreather either).

With those parameters and a 2.5 - 3 hour dive - not once I got into deco on rebreather.

 

[gekodivebali]

Turn-time on the dive is done by SPG primarily

Amazing what you can read from this giant troll.
When you do dive with a timer, is "turn-pressure done by timer primarily"?
Turn-time and turn-pressure are not exchangeable. You should know both time and pressure at any point. Assuming you know what time you're on because of pressure in your tank is a ****-up!

---------- Post added January 31st, 2014 at 06:19 AM ----------

Mostly associated with beginner divers, who think they do not need any time device since the DM is checking everything for them.

 

[gianaameri]

Amazing what you can read from this giant troll.
When you do dive with a timer, is "turn-pressure done by timer primarily"?
Turn-time and turn-pressure are not exchangeable. You should know both time and pressure at any point. Assuming you know what time you're on because of pressure in your tank is a ****-up!

I do not understand what you are saying.

In a cave OC the dive is turned generally based on the Rule of Thirds (I use Fourths).

As I explained, time is also important as was in my dive that time that day because if the SPG were to malfunction with the knowledge or awareness of time and depth and SAC you'd be able to realise something is wrong with the SPG.

SPG malfunction is a high probability event if any salt water ever enters the SPG bourdon tube.

 

[TONY CHANEY]

Everybody please just give it up in trying to explain anything to Gian. He is simply holding on to a make believe question that truly has no answer for. No one can answer the question that he has because there are so manny things that can happen. It is simply impossible to address them all. i.e. lost line, broken line, silt out, broken DPV, tank o ring failure and losing gas, tangled up in the line (remember that he said about breaking the rule of going under lines), going into an unknown section of the cave (but he will tell you that he knew all of the cave that he went into which BTW is pure BS), DS failure, lost / broken mask, reg. failure, etc. From the videos I have watched, I do not see the various depth and distance marking that he has stated that are there. Please post a video proving me wrong. Now couple all of the different things that could happen with no bottom timer, no depth gauage, solo, in a cave with a DPV and you can draw your own conclusions as to why I said it was a piss poor decision to make the dive.

So Gian simply wants to ask, "what could have a bottom timer and depth gauage done to prevent an emergency." We do not know and will never know. The two items are just tools to make diving safer. So if you want to take chances then you compound everything in caves. Also, I will add that if Gian has done this dive over hundreds of times before, then why the decision to dive it this day? To prove what? Looking at the same stuff that you have seen hundreds of times before? It simply is not worth it.

So if a diver shows up at a dive site, without a bottom timer or depth gauage then you really don't care and dive with them? For an example: Four of us were diving Cow. My light charger failed the night before during charging. We had no idea as to the charge of the light. We decided to go back to the LDS and rent a primary than to take a chance on it going out during the dive. The dive went well and nothing lost or chances taken.

I really don't know who is aware this thread was a branch off from the father and son that died on Christmas in Eagle's nest. But I can tell you that the father and son posted, and I would say bragged, about cave dives that they have done in the past without training. Much like we are seeing here but without proper equipment. You might get away with it once, twice and maybe hundreds of times but rest assure that one day it will bite you in the ass. So you take a small chance and cut corners, break rules written in blood and live to tell about it. What rules will you break tomorrow? Complacency Kills.

"...some night, in the chill darkness, someone will make a mistake: The sea will show him no mercy." John T. Cunningham

 

[gianaameri]

Everybody please just give it up in trying to explain anything to Gian. He is simply holding on to a make believe question that truly has no answer for. No one can answer the question that he has because there are so manny things that can happen. It is simply impossible to address them all. i.e. lost line, broken line, silt out, broken DPV, tank o ring failure and losing gas, tangled up in the line (remember that he said about breaking the rule of going under lines), going into an unknown section of the cave (but he will tell you that he knew all of the cave that he went into which BTW is pure BS), DS failure, lost / broken mask, reg. failure, etc. From the videos I have watched, I do not see the various depth and distance marking that he has stated that are there. Please post a video proving me wrong. Now couple all of the different things that could happen with no bottom timer, no depth gauage, solo, in a cave with a DPV and you can draw your own conclusions as to why I said it was a piss poor decision to make the dive.

So Gian simply wants to ask, "what could have a bottom timer and depth gauage done to prevent an emergency." We do not know and will never know. The two items are just tools to make diving safer. So if you want to take chances then you compound everything in caves. Also, I will add that if Gian has done this dive over hundreds of times before, then why the decision to dive it this day? To prove what? Looking at the same stuff that you have seen hundreds of times before? It simply is not worth it.

So if a diver shows up at a dive site, without a bottom timer or depth gauage then you really don't care and dive with them? For an example: Four of us were diving Cow. My light charger failed the night before during charging. We had no idea as to the charge of the light. We decided to go back to the LDS and rent a primary than to take a chance on it going out during the dive. The dive went well and nothing lost or chances taken.

I really don't know who is aware this thread was a branch off from the father and son that died on Christmas in Eagle's nest. But I can tell you that the father and son posted, and I would say bragged, about cave dives that they have done in the past without training. Much like we are seeing here but without proper equipment. You might get away with it once, twice and maybe hundreds of times but rest assure that one day it will bite you in the ass. So you take a small chance and cut corners, break rules written in blood and live to tell about it. What rules will you break tomorrow? Complacency Kills.

"...some night, in the chill darkness, someone will make a mistake: The sea will show him no mercy." John T. Cunningham

There is certainly great value in strict adherence to rules and protocols, but sometimes when rules/protocols cannot be adhered to you may have to improvise, adapt, overcome... (of course you can always abort and go home... but not necessarily always).

So, if I were in the USMC I should be Court Martialled for breaking protocol (even if it was just chicken-sheet), but I am a civilian engaging in an adventure sport recreational activity (and when I was conscripted age 17 in the "military" I was put with the "irregulars" meaning we are unpredictable and think outside of the box).

So, you and I are genetically and by upbringing fundamentally different, neither is better or worse, just different.

Now, just because you find it too complex to model the risks involved in cave diving or those specific to that dive that day, it does not mean it cannot be done.

Risk modelling and risk assessment and risk management, as a matter of fact, must be done, for any cave dive, and for that cave dive that day without Dive Computer/Bottom Timer, and for any one specific cave dive on any one specific day/moment.

For cave diving, you can find one generic risk model here:

http://www.cavedivinggroup.org.uk/Articles/RiskAssessmentFinal050905.pdf

If new risks, potential or perceived are found (or unforeseen risk events occur), then the model is updated accordingly (and updated constantly and "on-the-fly").

Now, for none of the risks you list (and none of the risks I know or can imagine) a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could have made a dildo of a difference that dive that day. I took no chances (i.e. incremental risks) whatsoever that dive that day having risk assessed performing that dive that day without Dive Computer/Bottom Timer.

Tell me one such risk (i.e. a risk where a Dive Computer/Bottom Timer could have made a dildo of a difference that dive that day), and I'll admit/accept I made a mistake and I missed it in my risk assessment that dive that day.

P.S. You seem to be on the way to understand why some people wear more than one "primary" light on their cave helmet... (too many lights... too much gas... ).