"Industry Standards (US)" What are they?

[ktomlinson]

What organization is it? PSI?

I believe that there is a de-facto legal issue of teaching scuba for payment without instructor certification, or providing scuba trips for payment to non-certified divers. I'm fairly certain there is no analogous situation with regards to scuba cylinder inspection. If so, then many, many dive shops are in violation. Essentially the shops own compressors and are free to fill or refuse to fill any scuba tank they choose, as long as the tank has a current DOT inspection. Most U.S. shops choose to issue vis stickers annually, but who knows what training any individual 'inspector' has.

The organization I'm certified through is Scientific Diving International. I'm not saying your wrong about the legality of SCUBA instruction without a certification, and I would think it would be a really bad move from a liability standpoint, but I wasn't aware that the law recognized recreational scuba certifications. Read about how certification agencies are made. The way I understand it is if someone or a group of someones creates an entity and draws up guidelines for training and if they can get an insurance company to cover their instructors and if enough folks will accept their students as competent then a new agency is born.

 

[Wookie]

There are no recreational scuba laws. There are scuba regulations for instructors, and for folks providing diving services in state waters. Up until a year ago, the Coast Guard did not recognize the difference between a scuba charter boat and any other kind of charter boat (whale watching, fishing, dinner cruise), but they are starting to now. There are compressed gas laws for handling cylinders we must follow, as well as HAZMAT laws for filling them, but they are far less onerous than a dive shop might make you think. Some states have some laws, like Florida's law for how often to get your air test done, and dive flag laws.

Everything else is BS. There is no law that you must be advanced to dive the Vandenberg, but it could be a good idea. What we think of as laws are really insurance company driven. Diving industry standards are what the owner of the compressor makes up on the spot. I checked very carefully with my insurance company, the 60 foot for OW divers is BS. If it isn't a limit printed on the card (40 feet for 10 and 11 year olds, for instance) then it doesn't exist. I'm lucky enough to have a normoxic trimix card with no depth limit printed on it. It has a gas percentage limit. I'm very tolerant of Oxygen, so I might dive to 260 on a 16% mix and think nothing of it, where Normoxic cards printed today all have 200 foot restrictions placed on them.

Diving isn't about regulation, it's about risk management.

 

[halocline]

I'm not saying your wrong about the legality of SCUBA instruction without a certification, and I would think it would be a really bad move from a liability standpoint, but I wasn't aware that the law recognized recreational scuba certifications.

That's why I said 'de-facto' legal issues. I'm aware that there are no actual laws governing scuba certification, but the entire industry really rests on the established agencies and more-or-less everyone in the business (at least in the U.S. market) is not going to provide SCUBA trips to non-certified divers, for liability. It's essentially a universal practice.

However, clearly the tank inspection business is not at that point. One could argue that it should be; i.e. that nobody should be allowed to inspect a tank without a certification, but currently it really comes down to 'the guy at the shop' and that's about it.

Plus, to be a SCUBA instructor, it's fairly rigorous; there are several courses to take, and the whole process of 'zero to hero' is typically many months (or a year) at a minimum. We all know of exceptions......but they are exceptions, and the process is expensive. Adding up all the courses, exams, gear, etc.....it's got to be $4-5K at a minimum to become a PADI (or other) instructor.

If you don't mind me asking, how much time and money did you directly spend on becoming a tank-inspection teacher? I know the PSI course to become a certified professional tank inspector is a couple of days and a few hundred bucks. Nothing like becoming a scuba instructor.

---------- Post added March 16th, 2013 at 07:53 AM ----------

Diving isn't about regulation, it's about risk management.

Absolutely, but there are two kinds of risk; personal risk to divers, and liability risk to professionals providing services. It's in the latter category where you have to rely on universally-accepted practices (de-facto regulations) in order to 'manage risks' of being sued down to your teeth.

 

[Wookie]

However, clearly the tank inspection business is not at that point. One could argue that it should be; i.e. that nobody should be allowed to inspect a tank without a certification, but currently it really comes down to 'the guy at the shop' and that's about it.

In today's shotgun lawsuit approach (Terry DeWolf's widow sued the boat, trip organizer, original certifying instructor, and gear manufacturer, for what was clearly a medical issue, and won), anyone who would inspect a cylinder without some sort of training is not managing their risks well. Imagine a CO incident. The widow will sue the fill station, and if her lawyer has any smarts, will look on the cylinder and see who inspected the cylinder. That doesn't mean that the cylinder inspector can't get their liability separated and dismissed, but it's possible that the cylinder inspector's professional liability insurance will pick up if they were certified by an agency who supports a VIP cert program. Without insurance, the guy who made 20 bucks doing a vis has to hire a lawyer all by themselves.

As I say, it's about managing risks.

 

[Scared Silly]

It is actually a DOT requirement that a tank be visually inspected when the hydro is done, but they aren't required to put a sticker on the tank like we do in the scuba industry.

Actually, the proper term is that a cylinder must under go "requalification" as part of this process there is a hydrostatic test and a visual inspection.

 

[ktomlinson]

Actually, the proper term is that a cylinder must under go "requalification" as part of this process there is a hydrostatic test and a visual inspection.

Awesome.

 

[jIM STEELE]

Awesome.

A hydro insept. Is good for 5 years

 

[ktomlinson]

The idea of checking each year is that you have a couple of opportunities to catch the crack, instead of relying on the one visual that's done every 5 years at hydro to catch it.

I know.

 

[redacted]

Part of my motivation for this thread was that I ran into a new "industry standard" a while back - at least that was the claim. I was told by a dive operator that I would not be able to bring my pony tank on the boat because it did not have a current VIS sticker. The tank was full (and in hydro - not that that should matter) and I had no expectation that the operator would fill the tank.

Anybody else ever run into this?

Edit: On the boat

 

[Scared Silly]

Bring your pony cylinder where ? On his boat?