Inconsistent message to new divers

[Rich Poorman]

After about 25 dives, in varied locations and circumstances, I began to feel knowledgeable enough to ask intelligent questions of the DM. I always approached it as if I had not heard or understood exactly what he/she had said, and always with respect, even if I thought the DM was wrong. On several occasions more-experienced divers picked up the thread of my question, and instructions were modified or refined. I felt self-conscious at first, as I'm sure many newbies do, but have come to understood that unless EVERYBODY in the dive party is fully aware of and comfortable with the plan, NOBODY is safe. Now, I sometimes will ask questions even if I understand and am comfortable, just because I sense that there are less-experienced divers who may be unclear on the instructions, but are too inhibited to speak up.

 

[DevonDiver]

On one hand, most SB'ers emphasize that divers are responsible for their own safety... "they received their certification, they should have known better than to trust the DM."....On the other hand, OW (and even AOW) are just the beginning....these certifications are meaningless insofar as their ability to determine at least a minimum level of proficiency.

Posts like this often address two different issues; the quality of the individual diver or the quality of diver education, in general.

When bemoaning the quality of modern dive education, attention is often focused on the extremely limited duration of entry-level courses and/or with the lack of gravitas with which such courses are taught. The sum total of which, is often seen as insufficient in developing a 'complete' scuba diver, with the necessary skillset, ingrained responses and mindset for safety underwater.

When discussing the (potentially inadequate) actions/conduct of a diver within a specific context (i.e. an emergency listed in A&I) many experienced divers are forthright in detailing the mindset or skillset deficiencies that contributed to a given situation. Increasingly so, those deficiencies include a failure to apply the most basic entry-level procedures and principles to the given dive...i.e. proper buddy procedures, proper dive planning or proper situational awareness.

The bare truth is that even the most frugal entry-level training programs do indeed provide the diver with education on the need for personal responsibility, buddy procedures, dive planning etc. However, the conduct/nature of that training may not emphasize the importance of such baseline behavior sufficiently, or may not adequately stress the need for application of the skills taught, once qualified. In short, poor educators, not a poor course.

Further to that, there is the legitimate question of whether divers should even need to be taught the necessity for taking personal responsibility for their own safety. That is, surely, a generic life-skill that any rational human being should be expected to possess?

I will also say that it is unrealistic and even to some degree elitist to expect new divers to ignore or disobey their DM/Instructor.

I don't see anything 'elitist' about applying common sense and awareness to make a personal decision about the parameters of safety you would be prepared to accept.

In addition, in almost every instance, the decision to blindly follow the actions/advice of a 'dive pro' is contrary to what is taught as fundamental safety within the most basic scuba programs. A contentious 'thinking' diver, even if inexperienced, is more than capable of identifying such glaring discrepancies between what they are taught (safety principles and diving skills) and what a dubious 'dive pro' might otherwise advocate.

Try to remember what it was like to be a brand new diver (yeah it's probably been awhile). There is a good chance that most of your dives immediately after getting your c-card were "trust me" dives.

Personally, that wasn't the case - I dove independently, with a buddy, under no supervision for quite a long time after qualification. The same is true for a large number of divers - typically those that dive 'at home', not (just) on holiday.

They SHOULD be "trust me" dives unless the new diver is far more knowledgeable than average. Veterans on SB are fond of saying or implying that new divers should heed the advice of those here who have thousands of dives and years of experience under their belt. And that is true enough. I've learned a ton just reading these boards over the past few months. But these same vets castigate new divers who put their trust in their DM, someone who probably has a similar level of experience as the SB vets and are practicing pro's.

Firstly, "heeding advice" is not the same thing as "abdicating responsibility". There is a vast gulf between those two statements.

Secondly, a "trust me" dive is (by SB consensus/definition) that a diver embarks upon, for which they do not possess the skills or knowledge to complete without assistance, thus creating unacceptable risks, should their 'supervisor' not perform as expected, or otherwise be unable to render assistance. The scuba agencies provide training, along with clear recommendations and limitations associated with that training.

A newly qualified Open Water diver can be expected to have the skills and knowledge to ensure reasonable safety/success when conducting dives within the parameters linked to their qualification (18m max depth, open water, in locations and conditions similar or better to those in which they were trained etc). Utilizing a dive supervisor for added safety under those circumstances is not a 'trust me' dive - if the assumption is made that the diver themselves takes personal responsibility and fully applies the training they were given.

In contrast, a newly qualified Open Water diver should not be expected to have the skills and knowledge to ensure reasonable safety/success on deep, overhead or other environmentally challenging dives. Utilizing a dive supervisor to off-set a direct skills/knowledge deficit, in order to enable the conduct of dives beyond the individual's training and comfort threshold involves a grand abdication of responsibility and directly contravenes the core safety advice given to divers at entry-level training.

Thirdly, the issue with not taking personal responsibility, tends not to be about 'trust me dives' (in the sense of dive complexity/skill requirement), but rather an outright abandonment of what the diver was taught to do, in favor of the convenience of having a 'dive pro' do it for them. By abandoning their training, the diver creates a 'trust me' situation because they cease to be capable of ensuring their own safety, when otherwise reasonably expected (due to training) to possess that capability. So... that's not a "trust me" dive... that's a "**** it... you do it all for me, and I'll follow like a lobotomised herd animal" dive.

Lastly, it's hard for a novice diver to fully understand the 'dynamics' of the scuba industry - particularly in respect to the 'professionals' who work within it. Some little research into the actual experience prerequisites for 'pro levels' can be quite eye-opening. Likewise, some no small measure of skepticism also helps - especially when considering the potential background, motivations and capabilities of 'dive pros'.

The vast majority of divers (old and new) are not active members of SB or other diving forums. To expect a newbie with maybe 10-20 dives to argue about protocol and safety with a DM who has thousands of dives at that location is ludicrous. NOTE: I'm not saying that a newbie disagreeing with the DM is ludicrous - I'm saying it is ludicrous to EXPECT a newbie to have the courage, stubbornness, or confidence to do so.

1. It's your life.

2. You are the paying customer.

Personally, I don't see the difference between 'disagreeing with a DM' or 'disagreeing with a waiter'. The average DM earns the same as a server in McDonalds (if they are paid at all)... would you require courage or confidence to make a complaint about an issue you had in a fast food joint?

People don't like personal responsibility, fair enough.
People would rather risk their life, than say something, fair enough.

IMHO, it all boils down to laziness... the abandonment of training, in preference for convenience... the abandonment of prudence and a questioning mind, in preference for reliance...

Some dive 'pros' love to provoke an aura of being 'god-like'... whatever... it's just a Joe doing a job... the ones who do that are typically the ones who you are least advised to ever listen to...

That kind of expectation is just not fair IMO. If a new OW told his DM that the dive plan was bad because of something he read on the internet, he might very well be laughed off the boat.

How about if it was because of something he read on his Open Water course?

Any dive operator that'd laugh customers off a boat, deserves an empty boat. Let the schmucks go home without salary that day... LOL

But as commendable as it may be for new divers to have the guts to stand up to the pro's, it should not be expected behavior (unless they've been reading SB!).

I'm not in the mindset to make excuses for people.

You don't need to read an internet forum to:

1. Apply your scuba training.
2. Take personal responsibility.
3. Not be naive.
4. Speak your mind.

 

[kdsmithjr]

I might be in general agreement here with you because, ultimately, personal responsibilty IS the gold standard. On the other hand, It is unrealistic that the average newly minted diver can effectively apply his/her "common sense" since common sense assumes that one has a minimum level of knowledge upon which to base common sense. We may all have cultivated a deep reservoir of common sense, but most of that common sense is land based and some of that common sense just don't work underwater. On the other hand, blindly following a DM is just a water based version of the old "it must be true because I seen it on TV" mentality. I think some middle ground is best here...and you may be suggesting just that. But when you are a newbie, it's real hard to know where the middle ground is....especially when you are dealing with a world where there is no ground....just water.

 

[DevonDiver]

It is unrealistic that the average newly minted diver can effectively apply his/her "common sense" since common sense assumes that one has a minimum level of knowledge upon which to base common sense.

I'd disagree. The Open Water course provides a sufficient knowledge-base from which to extrapolate common-sense for the purposes of taking personal responsibility.

We're not talking 'advanced' or 'technical' diving here. What we are talking about is planning your dive - and diving your plan, maintaining a buddy system for mutual support, adhering to personal and agency recommended depth limits, deciding your own comfort levels and remaining within them as you gain experience.... etc etc.

If someone is a qualified open-water diver, then they have the knowledge to keep themselves safe, despite inappropriate pressure from a 'pro' or insta-buddy. The issue is whether divers bother to apply that knowledge... more often than not, they don't.

 

[D_B]

Good thread

When right out of OW I would not have had the courage to speak up to a DM about not doing the dive , maybe unless I was really uncomfortable with it .. because all this time they would be telling you that they think your ready and can do it and It's hard to overcome the .. "they must know what they're talking about cause they're a professional"

Good thread

 

[gypsyjim]

I too have been reading threw this thread. A lot of good points.

I will point out that new divers who have just spent weeks training with Instructors and DM's may very naturally be willing to follow the advice and lead of another DM who they can see just a continuation of the original staff they learned to listen to and follow. These new divers are often not only quite new to diving, they are now quite often diving in conditions and locations far from those they trained in at home, and quite aware that they are still beginners. They expect the same level of care and expertise they will have been receiving with their recent DM's and Instructors where they trained.

Rather than put new divers down because they have developed a level of trust in those they see as "much more experienced" and who still retain a lot of uncertainty in their own skill levels, we should focus more of our energies on any incompetent op's and DM's that put such divers into situations they are not trained for, or that are potentially risky for less experienced divers.

 

[kdsmithjr]

well, i certainly didn't know some of the things you suggest....like my personal depth limit (i still don't know that after 130 dives) the day i got my ow cert. scuba diving is like a work in progress. you might reach certain milestones, but none of them define anything well. they are just mileposts. I think there are standards for every level of certification. Even if they are applied everywhere (they aren't) you still cannot see inside someone's head to know what they know or are supposed to know. Common sense is relative, no absolute.

You are certainly responsible for yourself but sometimes it is really not within the experiential bubble of a new diver to know whether or not to follow a DM. Bottom line....if it don't feel safe, don't do it. That doesn't mean you were "right" in a vacuum; it does mean you were right for you.

---------- Post added May 21st, 2012 at 10:01 PM ----------

i'm 100% with you on this....all your points. It's important to remember as a dive op or dm that your ultimate job is to inculcate a love for scuba diving, not to put someone into an uncomfortable situation.

 

[supergaijin]

I'd disagree. The Open Water course provides a sufficient knowledge-base from which to extrapolate common-sense for the purposes of taking personal responsibility.

We're not talking 'advanced' or 'technical' diving here. What we are talking about is planning your dive - and diving your plan, maintaining a buddy system for mutual support, adhering to personal and agency recommended depth limits, deciding your own comfort levels and remaining within them as you gain experience.... etc etc.

If someone is a qualified open-water diver, then they have the knowledge to keep themselves safe, despite inappropriate pressure from a 'pro' or insta-buddy. The issue is whether divers bother to apply that knowledge... more often than not, they don't.

Unfortunately there are few divers out there who are content to build their experience. Too many divers want instant gratification in the form of mantas, sharks, pristine wrecks without accepting that to 'qualify' for these dives usually means spending hours upon hours underwater in fairly benign conditions acquiring experience step by step. Walk before you run. Give Murphy the time to show up in shallow water before going deep.

Certified does not mean qualified.

A diving operator has the obligation of 'prudence'. Act as a prudent person would. For DMs this is a grey area of guiding. Many DMs are just not prudent enough and as one poster has pointed out a few pages back; are diving for themselves and not the guest. Many operations are concentrating too much on the bottom line. I know full well that adding one or two more divers to a boat increases the profit margin significantly- sometimes the consequences are terrifying, sometimes deadly.

As TSM rightly pointed out, more communication up front, eg. during check in or when inquiring my email may well result in better service and better choices for divers of differing abilities.

Individual divers also need to have an honest appraisal of their own limitations and show restraint when signing up for dives, because the operator may not.

 

[flots am]

Good thread

When right out of OW I would not have had the courage to speak up to a DM about not doing the dive , maybe unless I was really uncomfortable with it .. because all this time they would be telling you that they think your ready and can do it and It's hard to overcome the .. "they must know what they're talking about cause they're a professional"

That's pretty much exactly how it is.

I tend to not sugarcoat things and have no problem telling people to (do-something-unpleasant-to-themselves) if I think they're trying to get me to do something dumb, but my very first, #1 dive in an ocean was on a wall in Cozumel just because I didn't know any better. The boat stopped at some point in the water and the DM said "Follow me", and we did.

Even though I had a very long OW class and could perform all the skills reasonably proficiently, the skill I didn't possess and was completely unaware of, was "Determining if the DM is a moron." Now I know better.

flots.

 

[DevonDiver]

I will point out that new divers who have just spent weeks training with Instructors and DM's may very naturally be willing to follow the advice and lead of another DM who they can see just a continuation of the original staff they learned to listen to and follow.

I suppose that must have a lot to do with the attitude of the instructor/s that those novice divers encounter during training. If the instructor demonstrates an 'I am an underwater god' mentality, then a student is likely to be less inclined to question other dive pros subsequent to qualification.

I've read enough horror stories here on SB.... and seen enough 'cowboy' professionals with my own eyes. I make sure that my students are educated about the need for personal responsibility...and encourage them to remain cynical about dive pros and insta-buddies. If in doubt, go back to basics and stick with the advice and knowledge you gain in training.

I'm happy for my students to know that I'm fallible as an instructor. When we do buddy checks (I often teach one-to-one) I stress the need for them to not make assumptions - I am human, prone-to-error and need their 'back-up' in a very real sense. I doubt I'd ever need a student's assistance...(but who knows?)...however, at the very least, it adds an element of honesty to the training and dispels any false misconceptions that a student might have about more experienced divers.

I believe in training responsible divers - that means not sugar-coating my training, letting ego get in the way of education or missing an opportunity to shepherd a student into a more self-reliant and self-determining state of mind.

Apologies to my fellow instructors and divemasters.... but my students wouldn't trust you as far as they could throw you.... until you can prove to them otherwise... and even then.... I'd hope they wouldn't succumb to peer (or even worse,... pro) pressure..