Inconsistent message to new divers

[Rogersea]

Cosmographer,
I have never had or seen a situation where if a customer objected to making the dive he/she was pressured into making it.
As an owner operator I would be shooting myself in the foot if I tried to persuade some one to dive if they were seriously concerned about their safety on a dive.
I expect my customers to communicate their concerns with no fear of retribution, after all they are paying me to have a good time...


Cheers,
Roger

 

[Cosmographer]

Hi Roger,

I'm sure that's true, but you have to wonder how many chose not to object at all despite being uncomfortable with the situation. It's the fear of retribution, ridicule, etc. that sometimes keeps new divers from objecting (and understandably so).

 

[flots am]

Simple... Don't make any dive you think you need a DM to execute safely. Watch the pool empty!

If the DM stayed on the boat and the dive plan was "Have a nice dive, be back before you run out of air", the area under the boat would be a busy place.

Most new and infrequent divers would no more take off on a long tour without a DM than they would set themselves on fire. Which is as it should be.

Rather than insuring safety, I beleive the presence of a DM on a "tour" encourages divers to do dives they're not prepared for.

flots.

 

[Wookie]

If the DM stayed on the boat and the dive plan was "Have a nice dive, be back before you run out of air", the area under the boat would be a busy place.

flots.

It isn't so busy, folks tend to take off or follow other divers. You've described the US liveaboard model. Our injury rate is lower than the worldwide injury rate in general, according to my insurance company. We're just more likely to be sued.

 

[muddiver]

If the DM stayed on the boat and the dive plan was "Have a nice dive, be back before you run out of air", the area under the boat would be a busy place.

This is exactly the model used on the west coast in the U.S. Under the boat is not all that busy. Usually divers pop up spread out all over the place and spend 10 minutes surface swimming back to the boat.

Most new and infrequent divers would no more take off on a long tour without a DM than they would set themselves on fire. Which is as it should be.

Rather than insuring safety, I beleive the presence of a DM on a "tour" encourages divers to do dives they're not prepared for.

flots.

How NEW are you talking here? First or second dive after the certification dives, or certification is all done and it the first or second trip?

Just asking.

 

[boulderjohn]

I think a closer analysis of this scenario is helpful.

Let me give you an example of an exchange I witnessed between a new diver and his instructor (again paraphrasing):
New Diver: The water looks kind of rough. Should we really be diving so close to the cliffs?
Instructor: Yes, it's not a problem.
New Diver: But wouldn't the waves crash us into the rocks?
Instructor: It's not as bad as it looks. It's calmer below the surface.
New Diver: Are you sure?
Instructor: Yes, I dive this site all the time.
New Diver: Ok.

I think that after that conversation, a diver who is hesitant about the conditions (not frightened by them) will do the dive. If the dive goes well, then the diver has grown a little through that experience. If, on the other hand, the dive is beyond the diver's skill level, what does that say about the responsibility for that?

There was a thread about a year ago about an almost identical situation, one in which the dive did indeed turn out to be beyond the level of the diver. A significant number of the participants in the thread, including seasoned dive masters, put the blame fully on the diver for attempting a dive beyond his ability. I disagree. A new diver does not really understand his ability, and he or she absolutely does not know the difficulty of the dive in question. In the conversation above, divers really have little choice but to accept the professional judgment of the person they are paying to help them make that kind of decision. I don't think DMs can give poor advice and then toss of any responsibility by saying it was the diver's fault for listening to them.

 

[boulderjohn]

In OW instruction, there will not be a single mention of following a DM as a normal part of diving if a student or the instructor does not bring it up. I have had students bring it up because their diving friends have told them about it, and I always bring it up in the context of the topic of this thread. The focus of the course, as the RSTC guidelines state, is to prepare divers to dive unsupervised under the conditions similar to those under which they were trained.

The problem is what happens next.

If a diver is trained in places like Florida or California and then does a series of typical dives there, that training will be reinforced, and the diver will become a truly independent diver.

If the diver instead regularly dives resorts like Cozumel, where the DMs set up the equipment and makes all the dive decisions, then the diver will soon forget all the original training and become DM dependent. As I said in another thread on a similar topic running right now, I myself did all my early diving in Cozumel, and I got the mistaken notion that the whole world dives that way. It was a shock to me when I went somewhere else and had to set up my own tank and find my own way back to the boat.

 

[Quero]

There was a thread about a year ago about an almost identical situation, one in which the dive did indeed turn out to be beyond the level of the diver. A significant number of the participants in the thread, including seasoned dive masters, put the blame fully on the diver for attempting a dive beyond his ability.

Can you provide a link?

 

[boulderjohn]

Can you provide a link?

I wish I could. It is all in a hazy fog in my memory.

 

[TMHeimer]

boulderjohn, My one tropical week experience in Panama--1st 4 days just me and the DM. So, naturally he lead the dive, knowing the sites. 5th day about 7 of us-- in buddy pairs, DM leading, so, I guess this was one of those "Guide-led" dives. One of the divers started zig-zagging all over and eventually got me and my buddy "detached" from the bunch, and got himself lost. My buddy (17) from Denmark and I looked at each other in amazement. The DM ignored us, got the others back on board and found the wayward diver (he figured I had some experience and we looked good diving). Then we were picked up. The viz that day was "only" 10 feet (as opposed to the usual 40) so you'd figure priority one is keeping the fins in front of you in view. This zig-zag guy was obviously not experienced in being responsible for himself, and didn't even "follow the leader". I guess diving down there only may cause this....