Incident at White Star Quarry, 6/9/09

[CDNScubaMoose]

IMHO, it comes down to personal risk tolerance. I regularily do a "gut check" as to what I am comfortable doing with my abilities. Thal and a few others (myself included) had a discussion in another thread on how far down a wall we would go to catch up to a diver who was drifting deeper. The answers varied considerably but what I took away from it was that it is personal comfort level. I attempt to instill in my students not to exceed their comfort level but at the same time I can't define what their comfort level should be - I can only attempt to educate what the risks are and what skills and/or equipment should be utilized. Would I drop to 90' on 300 psi ... if I was the only diver at the site - probably, would I be successful - maybe/maybe not but nobody is going to tell me that I won't do it - that is my choice. I applaude the effort of all those involved in this rescue but I also have tremendous respect for the diver who had 300 psi in their tank and said, "no".

 

[TheScubaBOB]

I would definitely drop to 90 feet on 300 psi if I thought I knew exactly where the diver was. I would be ashamed to face my three kids if I diidn't.


Where do you people come up with this stuff?

Sounds like a couple of heros saved a life that day!

I agree completely, a couple of heros saved a life on that day.

But why must we villify the New Diver who didn't feel comfortable dropping to 40ft on 300 psi?

Also, you did change the parameters of the 90ft on 300psi situation. Just answer it straight. Answer the question as it was presented: on 300 psi would you drop to 90ft and START A SEARCH for a missing diver.

I will agree that if I failed to take action that was within my abilities (or even slightly exceeding them) then I would have trouble facing myself.

For example if a diver can safely do a 90ft bounce then they might see the missing diver close enough that they can either retrieve them or let the next round of divers who should be on their way out know where they saw the diver then I aplaud you for doing so.

On the other hand, I will not berate an new diver who feels like a rescue attempt at 40ft is beyond his skills because: 1) he only has 300 psi in his tank (aren't we trained that we should have 500 psi at the surface after a dive) and 2) he doesn't have any Recsue training so he has no idea of what to do even if he gets to the victim.

 

[jkaterenchuk]

I would definitely drop to 90 feet on 300 psi if I thought I knew exactly where the diver was. I would be ashamed to face my three kids if I diidn't.


Where do you people come up with this stuff?

Sounds like a couple of heros saved a life that day!

Agree on the Hero's but maybe you should consider how your actions might effect your own kids if you fail to come home after pulling a stunt like your suggesting.

If you think you can do it then by all means its your decision but the math does not look good for you.

You better be dam fast or be part fish. The way the calculations come out is that you would have less than 4 minutes of air to complete the entire descent/search/rescue/ascent and that is if you have a better than average RMV/SAC.

Now figure into air needed because you might be using air faster than your RMV/SAC due to the situation and for inflation and the fact that your regulator cannot deliver all the 300psi and you better swim dam quick or your doing a emergency swimming ascent. Guess you can forget a normal ascent rate since that would take too long using up almost half your time. Then if you make it to the surface and black out guess your going to sink again and drown since you would probably have nothing left even from expansion to inflate for bouyancy on the surface.

Thats the reality of the numbers but maybe it will be your lucky day.

John

 

[Steve50]

I agree completely, a couple of heros saved a life on that day.

1) he only has 300 psi in his tank (aren't we trained that we should have 500 psi at the surface after a dive) .

keep in mind - the 500 psi is for emergencies

 

[stevejaz]

Agree on the Hero's but maybe you should consider how your actions might effect your own kids if you fail to come home after pulling a stunt like your suggesting.

If you think you can do it then by all means its your decision but the math does not look good for you.

You better be dam fast or be part fish. The way the calculations come out is that you would have less than 4 minutes of air to complete the entire descent/search/rescue/ascent and that is if you have a better than average RMV/SAC.

Now figure into air needed because you might be using air faster than your RMV/SAC due to the situation and for inflation and the fact that your regulator cannot deliver all the 300psi and you better swim dam quick or your doing a emergency swimming ascent. Guess you can forget a normal ascent rate since that would take too long using up almost half your time. Then if you make it to the surface and black out guess your going to sink again and drown since you would probably have nothing left even from expansion to inflate for bouyancy on the surface.

Thats the reality of the numbers but maybe it will be your lucky day.

John

At 90' there is no doubt in my mind I wouldn't be able to make a rescue, especially after swimming untold distance to get there. However I'd sure as heck at least use up that 300PSI as constructively as possible. Maybe it's decending to 40 or 60 feet to scout or see where my air is at that point.

If it's a family member...I'm going for it. In this particular case it's irrelevent as I would have already determined I couldn't do anything and the best thing for the victim is for me to surface and get help. I'd then use my remaining air to assist or point them in the right direction.

As for not being able to inflate at the surface, I'd drop weight and orally inflate.

I really think it comes down to the fact that there are different kinds of people. Some will freeze and just stand there dumb founded. Others will not risk being harmed and I think this is a lot of people. Then there are others that will do everything in their power to save another for various reasons. Either way, most will rationalize their reasoning in the time that follows to be at peace with their decision.

I for one, know that if I don't rationally do everything in my power, I will not find peace. Depending on the circumstances "rational" decisions are to be determined. Family member would rate extremely high putting me more at risk. Another child also very high, if I'm at fault or put/encouraged somebody into their current predicament also pretty high and it's a gradual slope from there.

 

[TheAquaticApe]

I realize it's spurred a lot of opinions regarding what we as individuals would or would not do. In part it's my fault for not being clearer and the misunderstanding of my relaying of the facts.

I agree that Patrix was saying that he wouldn't ask anyone to attempt a rescue in 40' of water with 300 psi. He was also one of the folks who participated in the rescue effort. In fact I saw him riding over fully geared up in the back of a pickup. He's hard to miss in that orange drysuit.

Until an official report emerges we can only be thankful that the victim is still alive and grateful to those who jumped into action to enable that outcome.

 

[Thalassamania]

With respect to the low air pressure rescue question permit me to dip back into an old story that I posted for some perspective (use the link to read the entire story ... it begins on the previous post),

Frank, Ken and I descended into fifty feet of water over the rocky canyons off San Jose Creek. It was Ling Cod city. I shot three. They’re a delicious, but truly stupid, fish. I just stacked them up on my spear. Ken tapped me on the shoulder and slashed his hand across his throat. He pointed to Frank, pointed to me and banged his fists together. He pointed to himself and raised his thumb. I gave him an okay. Ken started up and I went after Frank.

Frank was the only University of California diver I knew (not Berkeley might I add, but Santa Barbara) who was not a perfect buddy, but he was a faculty member and a very strong swimmer. We were at about fifty feet, he was out ahead and I was having trouble gaining on him. Over the next few minutes he managed to stay about twenty feet in front of me, just at the limit of visibility. I had almost caught him when I felt a tap on my shoulder.

There’s Ken, snorkel in place, pointing to his mouth. I gave him my regulator. Two breaths, I took two, Ken took two. Ken's hand began to gyrate, with sinking stomach and rising respiration rate I recognized the motions from the previous day.

 

[Brown Mermaid]

The Windy City Seals also thanks everyone involved. MASK and the Seals hang together throughout the year. We will also keep our sister diver in our prayers as well as our brother diver.

 

[Brown Mermaid]

Regardless of whether you can drop down 90' on 300 psi or 40' on 300 psi, don't shoot the diver that knew his limits and asked for help. I'm quite sure, and I definitely know that he is beating himself up. Let's stuff our egos back in the wetsuits and pray for him too.

 

[Notso_Ken]

Not rescuing a victim from 40 feet with 300 psi (or just freediving for that matter) is likely to turn a rescue into a recovery. I'm sure glad that the chance of my needing assistance in your jurisdiction is passing small.

Attempting to rescue someone from the bottom in 40 - 50 feet with 30 foot vis and 300 psi is asking to turn the situation into a double rescue.

8 cu ft of air (assuming 80ft3 tank) will NOT last long at 40 - 50 feet.


Ken