In water support

[rjack321]

No idea what you mean by this, but it made me wonder: What kind of training and experience would you look for in a support diver? For example, would they have to be trained to the level of the dive being done?

I was just joking about how the proverbial "PADI diver" is willing to do no stops at all on a recreational dive. Hence they have even less than a "minimum deco" obligation, so they could run support for recreational, min deco DIR dives

Basically the barometer of a support diver to me is that they need to be able to give and receive bottles and scooters off of a diver in duress. They need good buoyancy midwater otherwise their bouncing around is counterproductive. Dean Marshall had an article on OW support back in Quest 6.3 which addresses some of this. His recommendation is that support divers should be meeting the team at 70ft but be on 21/35 so that they have a sufficient vertical latitude to address significant problems much deeper. So that would suggest "Tech1" or comparable training.

His second point is that in the open ocean (like 30 or even 100 miles off shore) part of the support role is to maintain boat to decoing diver contact. Because getting lost is such a serious condition and much more likely than a lost deco gas at that.

I don't think its as simple as saying a 2 bottle dive requires support. The Steele and Warren cars in Lake Crescent are easy peasy without support. And I didn't think my arse was hanging way out there on that deco.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Basically the barometer of a support diver to me is that they need to be able to give and receive bottles and scooters off of a diver in duress. They need good buoyancy midwater otherwise their bouncing around is counterproductive. Dean Marshall had an article on OW support back in Quest 6.3 which addresses some of this. His recommendation is that support divers should be meeting the team at 70ft but be on 21/35 so that they have a sufficient vertical latitude to address significant problems much deeper. So that would suggest "Tech1" or comparable training.

I agree ... I think Tech 1 or comparable training is required. Essentially, the support diver is part of the team, and is as involved in the dive planning as the people doing the dive. They do not need to have the same level of training, but they do need to be able to understand the dive plan sufficient to make good decisions in event of an emergency. This inherently means some level of tech training. Solid buoyancy skills are a must ... since you'll likely be doing some level of equipment handoff during a deco stop.

I don't think its as simple as saying a 2 bottle dive requires support. The Steele and Warren cars in Lake Crescent are easy peasy without support. And I didn't think my arse was hanging way out there on that deco.

You're right ... it's not that simple. I was thinking more about ocean dives where you're coming up a line rather than lake dives where you're doing deco while following a bottom contour. Conditions in Lake Crescent are pretty benign ... no current, 100+ foot vis, and easy access to shore. I can see doing dives like that without a support diver. In fact, when we did those cars (both on the same dive, using scooters) we didn't have a support diver either ... but we did have a three-person team and a contingency plan in the event of a lost deco bottle.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rjack321]

I was thinking more about ocean dives where you're coming up a line rather than lake dives where you're doing deco while following a bottom contour. Conditions in Lake Crescent are pretty benign ... no current, 100+ foot vis, and easy access to shore. I can see doing dives like that without a support diver. In fact, when we did those cars (both on the same dive, using scooters) we didn't have a support diver either ... but we did have a three-person team and a contingency plan in the event of a lost deco bottle.

Same, 3 people, scooters, no counting deep stops 40mins deco total. We had enough deco gas to cover the complete loss of probably 2 of the 6 total bottles along (O2 and 50% x3 people). Not that committing a dive, at least it didn't feel that way. And I definately wouldn't want to blow off 40mins of deco either.

For larger cave dives I'd like to hear when people are adding support. Ditto 50miles offshore, never done one of those either. The former I can see adding support around the time when you add a 2nd or 3rd deco gas (170 to 240ft) depending on the total obligation. The latter maybe around the time of a second deco gas plus a touch (180ft). But I don't really know what or why people are getting help vs. going without.

 

[nadwidny]

Ditto 50miles offshore, never done one of those either.

5 miles or 50 it's all the same wrt support divers. It's just a longer boat ride.

When we do offshore we do as JeffG mentioned earlier. If there's a bottle on a leash, then a support diver becomes more of a necessity.

Another point that's been alluded to but never actually mentioned. The safety diver can not go into deco.

 

[rjack321]

5 miles or 50 it's all the same wrt support divers. It's just a longer boat ride.

So would you do any deco at all 50miles from shore (without support)? I'm in an inland sea and it would be a rare site where the next stop is Japan.

When we do offshore we do as JeffG mentioned earlier. If there's a bottle on a leash, then a support diver becomes more of a necessity.

Yes agree, but by the time you adding a bottom stage you are well into "no way you're blowing off that deco" and surviving. Some other recommendations have been basically adding support to ~20min Tech1 dives.

Another point that's been alluded to but never actually mentioned. The safety diver can not go into deco.

Yes, thanks for making sure that's clear.

 

[nadwidny]

So would you do any deco at all 50miles from shore (without support)? I'm in an inland sea and it would be a rare site where the next stop is Japan.

This is Practitioners. I'm not sure what I would or wouldn't do is forum appropriate. The only correct answers here is the DIR answer.

But yes I have done deco dives without support where the next stop was Europe and I would again. But it was much better doing those dives with support.

Does anyone know if there is an official DIR position? I thought I read somewhere that support is required on all deco dives.

 

[Rainer]

I thought I read somewhere that support is required on all deco dives.

Not the case for T1 dives (at least according to the GUE training director). We were encouraged to have Fundies divers come out in support of T1 dives if possible, but certainly not a requirement. I have no idea about T2 dives, but from a bunch of footage Sherwood showed us of some T2 dives he did recently in Egypt, he didn't have support divers.

 

[rjack321]

Does anyone know if there is an official DIR position? I thought I read somewhere that support is required on all deco dives.

If there is a "right way" in the agency's mind they have not articulated it. I'm not too shy to ask on Quest, although I don't get many reasoned responses there.

Not the case for T1 dives (at least according to the GUE training director). We were encouraged to have Fundies divers come out in support of T1 dives if possible, but certainly not a requirement. I have no idea about T2 dives, but from a bunch of footage Sherwood showed us of some T2 dives he did recently in Egypt, he didn't have support divers.

I would not want a GUE-F diver along on my Tech1 dives as "support". I beleive that's increasing your net liabilities not decreasing them.

 

[nadwidny]

I would not want a GUE-F diver along on my Tech1 dives as "support". I beleive that's increasing your net liabilities not decreasing them.

Depends on the GUE-F diver. Supporting a Tech1 dive isn't rocket surgery.

 

[rjack321]

Depends on the GUE-F diver. Supporting a Tech1 dive isn't rocket surgery.

It less about their skill than just having another person/set of equipment in the water to manage. For very limited benefit in my mind