In Response to "a Unified Dive Industry"

[Jupiter31]

Thal, we (sorta) may be saying the same thing - my point was unless local diving is done, the sport is not gonna make it on divers - new or "old" doing a week or 2 a year vacations - point was many think there is no reason to dive locally - but there is.

Still will take Little Cayman over the spots you mentioned - again point was tuna fish is not as good as lobster but that does not mean you can't enjoy them both!
Perception by many is there is not reason to get wet locally - and that is not the case.

Here is the gist of what I previously posted:

"While most do not, there is local diving whitin a doable drive of just about everyone who wants to dive - its likely not Key Largo, Boynton, or my favorite, Jupiter, but its water, it affords the opportunity to get wet and dive.

I think many feel (like I did about downhill skiing when I moved to FL 30 years ago - why bother if you can only do it 1 or 2 weeks a year - as an aside, I'm in the minority re skiing as S FL has 2 of the most active ski clubs in the country) the only worthwhile diving is in FL, or the carribean, or someplace far and expensive.

You can't compare Dutch Springs to Cocos, or Little Cayman, but it does not mean you can't have a great dive there."

 

[mike_s]

No, I'm talking about the thread "being of sound mind..." Nov 22nd, 2007. I thought it was funny. Someone called BS on his claim, he said he had proof (video) that he was going to produce, he never did that I saw. Kinda blew his credibility for me.

ok.... Thought you were talking about the Panama City thread at first. (where the other users was claiming he did his first boat dive, at night, in 10 ft waves. You commented in that thread also.)

I see the "being of sound mind" thread now.


Funny thing about seas conditions. NOAA has historical charts available online that tell what seas conditions are for any given day. It's easy to dispute bogus claims.

 

[RJP]

I just do not want to see our sport become an activity, which I feel it is.

Serious question for you:

Why do you care?

This is one of the biggest marketing issues I see clients run into all the time. For some reason most companies selling a product want people to buy that product for a very specific reason, to the point of NOT CARING why the CUSTOMER might actually want to buy the product. Even if the customer might have a BETTER reason - one that might have more people buy the product earlier and more often - the company usually doesn't care enough to find out.

I can see why someone with a certain mindset might want to make diving "competitive" on some level, but that would be a huge turn-off for a large portion of the diving (and potential diving) public who want to dive because it's an easy going, commune with nature, no-pressure, just go-with-the-flow, kind of activity.

Of course there's a whole segment of divers (and potential divers) who respond to the idea of "going where others fear to tread" adventure aspect of the sport. Then there's the undersea hunter/gather'ers going for lobster and fish. Or the history buffs who love WWII wrecks.

As with anything, there's an emotional aspect to the sport that no one has really figured out how to tap into across a large enough audience to really hit the motherlode. Again, this is very "find-outable" using proven methodologies. And once someone taps into that emotional aspect they will not only change the game, but they will create a large, loyal, pool of long-term customers who are much less price sensitive than today's current crop of divers.

Think about how Starbucks gets $4 for a cup of coffee that people intellectually know costs 3 cents to make, or how Lexus gets $38k for a car that everyone intellectually knows is a tarted-up Camry. How do they do that? (HINT: Startbucks knows they don't sell coffee and Lexus knows they don't sell cars...)

 

[cloudswinger]

I hear ya man. We are a collection of smart people. I am sure we can figure out how to find some way to make diving competitive without turning it into "open circuit freediving." I just do not want to see our sport become an activity, which I feel it is.

So what's the difference between sport and activity?

In the martial arts, we have "sport" groups and others. Generally the sport ones are much more competition oriented. They tend to attract the young and fit. But no one can compete forever, since no one stays young and fit forever, and people drop out when they feel they can no longer perform at peak. On the other hand the non-sport clubs can attract/retain older people, since the orientation isn't external performance, but internal improvement. That said, our society is more about external measurements.

I do see an element of competitiveness in the I've been deeper crowd, but I think the competitiveness could be more about places. Like I've dove the seven seas, or all the wrecks off the eastern seaboard. There's a group of people that visit all the National Parks, for instance. They get a stamp from each park and compete on who has done the most.

Or like birders have a life list of birds observed, one could have a list of sea life seen. Birders are always on the hunt for the elusive ones too. But it's also a heck of a lot easier to just grab your binoculars than to set up all the gear required for a dive.

I was doing an informal survey of the people I know that are certified, and most are vacation divers. So a) they're either not going on beach vacations anymore, or b) have kids, or c) seen a couple of reefs/pretty fishes, they all start to look alike. And then if you've missed a year, you have to spend money on a refresher course. Well, sometimes it's just easier not to and do something else with that money. Scuba is expensive, and I'm beginning to think there's global price fixing too. but that's neither here nor there.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

So what's the solution then? I have always been told that you do not say "we cannot", you propose an alternative. How do you propose to keep diving from growing rather than shrinking? Alternately, do you propose that diving should get smaller, and if so why? Sorry for all the questions, but I am curious what some of the older, more seasoned people around here think.

I'm not convinced that "growing" means attracting more divers. Improving the retention of those who are currently getting certified might be a better place to focus our attention. Finding ways to keep them more active in diving. How to do it? Find ways to make it more affordable. Fund programs (local aquariums, perhaps?) that can keep people involved in it when they're not diving? Promoting TV programming that involves scuba.

Two glaring things suggest that diving isn't amenable to growth ... the fact that the vast majority of people who get certified do not continue diving, and the fact that the vast majority of those who do only ever dive on vacation. With respect to the latter, scuba then has to compete with all the other activities that people enjoy doing with their vacation time ... many of which are more affordable and more accessible.

The first thing the scuba "industry" needs to do is stop considering other scuba businesses as their competitors and realize that they're competing against all those other activities for people's discretionary dollars. Perhaps a better approach would be some cooperative arrangements that would make it easier and more affordable to keep those who are already getting certified actively diving.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Thalassamania]

Thal, we (sorta) may be saying the same thing - my point was unless local diving is done, the sport is not gonna make it on divers - new or "old" doing a week or 2 a year vacations - point was many think there is no reason to dive locally - but there is.

Still will take Little Cayman over the spots you mentioned - again point was tuna fish is not as good as lobster but that does not mean you can't enjoy them both!
Perception by many is there is not reason to get wet locally - and that is not the case.

Local diving is, I think a key component. Perhaps there is a completely different paradigm, but I harken back to the old days when a dive club often owned a boat that went out every weekend during the season, the question is how to reestablish that sort of social network so that it becomes firm enough that people are willing to use it as an economic tool to obtain (and share) resources such as boats, rebreathers, video stuff, etc. I don't see that happening the way it did in the old days, I see that sort of suite of shared resources being financed and managed by an investor/professionals and memberships being sold as opposed to growing out of an affinity group. As far as tuna vs. lobster is concerned ... it all depends, if it's ahi vs. longusta, ahi very time! If it's Maine lobster vs. chunk light ... I'll take the lobster. If it a question of what to see when you dive ... I'm back to the tuna: here's why.

 

[Slonda828]

Serious question for you:

Why do you care?

This is one of the biggest marketing issues I see clients run into all the time. For some reason most companies selling a product want people to buy that product for a very specific reason, to the point of NOT CARING why the CUSTOMER might want to buy the product. Even if the customer might have a BETTER reason - one that might have more people buy the product earlier and more often - the company usually doesn't care enough to find out.

I can see why someone with a certain mindset might want to make diving "competitive" on some level, but that would be a huge turn-off for a large portion of the diving (and potential diving) public who want to dive because it's an easy going, commune with nature, no-pressure, just go-with-the-flow, kind of activity.

Well, I guess for the tourist diver, I do not. I care because it is hard to find people to dive with other than my girlfriend. I care because I do not like to dive with crappy divers when my girlfriend does not feel like diving that weekend. I also care because lots of my friends and people my age ask me why I dive when it is a thing that mostly old and fat people do (their words). For those people who like diving because it is easy going, more power to them. I like doing things that are challenging. I like finding other people to do that with, because doing it alone sucks. It would be nice to not dive the same wrecks over and over again for 150 bucks a pop.

Of course there's a whole segment of divers (and potential divers) who respond to the idea of "going where others fear to tread" adventure aspect of the sport. Then there's the undersea hunter/gather'ers going for lobster and fish. Or the history buffs who love WWII wrecks.

As with anything, there's an emotional aspect to the sport that no one has really figured out how to tap into across a large enough audience to really hit the motherlode. Again, this is very "find-outable" using proven methodologies. And once someone taps into that emotional aspect they will not only change the game, but they create a large, loyal, pool of long-term customers who are much less price sensitive than today's current crop of divers.

Think about how Starbucks gets $4 for a cup of coffee that people intellectually know costs 3 cents to make, or how Lexus gets $38k for a car that everyone intellectually knows is a tarted-up Camry. How do they do that? (HINT: Startbucks knows they don't sell coffee and Lexus knows they don't sell cars...)

I'm not saying I want to change the dive industry, I don't care that much. I like the job I already have, I usually only dive twice a month, and I'm okay with that. Still, it would be nice to go do something challenging, new, or fun during those times instead of diving the Gray Ghost for the 15th time. Diving is a weird industry. If I wanted to go to Yosemite and climb, I could find an outfitter, a buddy, or just a group of dirt bag climber who wanted to go. Short of buying a boat (which I view as a horrible investment), there's very little way to get out on the ocean and see a lot of the cool stuff that is out there. Hence my idea about a dive group. I hesitate to use the word club, because every "dive" club that I have ever seen is really a supper club that does very little diving.

So I guess that is where I am coming from RJ.

 

[rstofer]

I would be willing to help do that, at least in my area. I would love to train divers to be physically fit, and to do my part to train them to do more difficult dives. I think that diving should be like climbing. You should be able to go to a dive shop, swim, get better technique, work out in a gym, go run, and then practice your sport. That's my favorite part about climbing is that you have to be in good shape to do it. Some 40 year old man cannot go out and buy 4,000 dollars worth of equipment and be on my playing field. You can call that elitist, but I like being good at difficult things. That's why I haven't bought any dive gear in like a year. It just is not that hard to be good at it (recreationally). If I had a reason to buy more gear (more difficult stuff say), then I would. I think once diving as a social community realizes that you need some "elitism" to make a sport grow, then maybe we will do something about it. We need to get away from the commercialized agency crap and learn to do things without babysitters. It's not like you can just go pay somebody 500 bucks and you have a card that (omni omni) declares that you are a climber. You have to actually earn it by getting bashed up and sweating your butt off.

Well, I see we have vastly different views of diving. Maybe when I was in my 40s and still racing hare scrambles or hydroplanes, we could have this discussion.

I'm 63 and there is no way in the world I could be considered 'in shape' compared to someone in their 30s. The Atenolol alone makes certain I can't compete. I can struggle down the beach and dive around a little but certainly not the way I dove 20 years ago. My competitive days are long gone (except I still think about building another hydro - my wife objects. Loudly...).

But I'm good for the industry because my pensions pay for all of the dive related expenses for 4 divers. And we're all using top-of-the-line gear. Of the 4 of us, only my son-in-law would be qualified under your plan.

Years ago, I dove every week. Warm water, essentially uninhabited islands, lots of interesting dives. Now its cold water, wetsuit and once in a while.

But don't cast us aside just yet. Remember, we (the aged) have all the money.

Richard

 

[Slonda828]

So what's the difference between sport and activity?

I view it much the same as you do martial arts. BMX is a great example. I'm too old and rickety to race BMX, so now I just ride with other old heads because it is fun. Diving is like the opposite. It does not have a competitive or professional level that you can get too old or tired or bored to do and then just chill out and do it for fun. I'm still at that age with diving where I would like to do the highspeed stuff. I'm at that age for BMX where I just like to ride to work and jump here and there, but I've injured myself too many times to ride ramps. So that is how I view sports vis-a-vis activities. Does that make sense or am I being vague?

 

[boulderjohn]

Local diving is, I think a key component. [/URL]

It is if you are in the right location.

Here in Colorado we are doing what we can to promote local diving, but it is a pretty tough sell. People who were certified with the idea of floating along a warm reef and looking at colorful coral, sponges, and fish do not see 60 degree water and 4 foot visibility (which does not matter, since there is usually nothing to see except some crawdads) as a rough equivalent. Our state motto is that we are just a plane flight away from great diving, and our divers are more likely to see Cozumel as their local dive site than Aurora Reservoir.

EDIT: And the last I heard, we still have more divers per capita than any other state in the union.