Importance of back kick in Cave Diving?

[rjack321]

Thanks for the more detailed account. Man, I still miss her posts. She did her Cave 1 in MX with Danny Riordan so I could see how she could get to Cave 2 without it being adequately addressed and how getting a student in Cave 2 that couldn't effectively flutter kick would raise a red flag. I used to think that dropping the knees was the biggest issue, but I have been seeing other fundies classes conducted and there are a whole host of things that hurt it's efficiency--gyrating hips, legs too far apart, kick cycle too long, etc.

TS&M was a very petite woman to start with and around here moved very very slowly looking at critters (usually). Like drifting in no current slowly. All her kicks were downright dainty little ankle swishes. Doing a stage dive in someplace like Ginnie, little river, or manatee was a big stretch for her to push all that stuff (bigger doubles than usual plus a stage or deco bottle) into any kind of flow. It had been years since she had fluttered locally - "no silting!" being one of her mantras since GUE-F 5 or 6 years earlier. So there was a bit of a collision in her C2 between dainty precision and David Rhea who was trying to get her to "get the **** in gear and move".

I see dropped knees and hunched over back a lot (and sometimes end up dropped myself). The lack of power is less common. TS&M was a unique case because she didn't see the need for power kicks, and they weren't needed for the diving she preferred, nor were they natural for her 5'2" 100lbs soaking wet frame, so she didn't practice them to maximize the power she had or develop more via practice. That all collided with David who's not a small guy and probably hadn't had a student quite like TS&M ever before.

Shortly thereafter (couple months) there as a new guideline/reminder issued to not ignore flutter kicks when appropriate for the environment/dive.

 

[johnkendall]

It wasn't Lynn's fault. Jarrod's bugbear about flutter kick has been around a very long time, and with good reason. Since I started teaching cave (about 7 years now) I've found that a weak flutter kick also shows up other basic issues with trim and stability.
Going back to the OP, I think a working back kick is necessary for all diving, not just cave. And I wouldn't be passing someone at C1 level without a good back kick.

 

[rjack321]

It wasn't Lynn's fault. Jarrod's bugbear about flutter kick has been around a very long time, and with good reason. Since I started teaching cave (about 7 years now) I've found that a weak flutter kick also shows up other basic issues with trim and stability.
Going back to the OP, I think a working back kick is necessary for all diving, not just cave. And I wouldn't be passing someone at C1 level without a good back kick.

Wasn't trying to blame her, it was certainly a convergence of a lot of factors all at the same time. She was kind of a poster child at the time and IIRC she even had a thread about it here.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

It wasn't Lynn's fault. Jarrod's bugbear about flutter kick has been around a very long time, and with good reason. Since I started teaching cave (about 7 years now) I've found that a weak flutter kick also shows up other basic issues with trim and stability.
Going back to the OP, I think a working back kick is necessary for all diving, not just cave. And I wouldn't be passing someone at C1 level without a good back kick.

I thought back kick was needed to start Tech-1! Is that not a requirement to pass Fundies?

 

[chillyinCanada]

It wasn't Lynn's fault. Jarrod's bugbear about flutter kick has been around a very long time, and with good reason. Since I started teaching cave (about 7 years now) I've found that a weak flutter kick also shows up other basic issues with trim and stability.
Going back to the OP, I think a working back kick is necessary for all diving, not just cave. And I wouldn't be passing someone at C1 level without a good back kick.

I agree that a back kick is also a good skill to have for recreational divers. I continue to struggle with it. Of course, I don't dedicate enough practice time to it either.

 

[CptTightPants21]

I thought back kick was needed to start Tech-1! Is that not a requirement to pass Fundies?

He is said good back kick. He just reiterated what was said before; at least an 'ok' back kick to pass fundies, a good back kick is needed to pass C1/T1.

 

[rjack321]

He is said good back kick. He just reiterated what was said before; at least an 'ok' back kick to pass fundies, a good back kick is needed to pass C1/T1.

Which really isn't captured quite right in the poll either.
I voted "New cave student should be familiar with the technique. Mastery he will develop with real experience"
Because that's the closest to what a Fundies student beginning C1 would be like in my mind. Familiar being can do it but not necessary perfectly all the time. Most students (myself included) have moments of wow interspersed with so-so days. I would expect them to improve a bit over the course of their week and be "good" to pass C1.

Mastery is not required, although the first choice doesn't define what "having" a skill is mediocre vs adequate vs. great so I struggled if that was the intent there

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

I agree. The poll had a very tight word limit so I had to struggle on how to put the concepts across.

 

[Lorenzoid]

. . .
Going back to the OP, I think a working back kick is necessary for all diving, not just cave. And I wouldn't be passing someone at C1 level without a good back kick.

Please clarify this. Are you saying a "good" back kick is necessary to pass C1, but a lesser, "working" back kick is sufficient to earn a Fundies tech pass?

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

When I was learning back kick, my back kick was good enough to hold position in one spot but to weak to propel me backwards with the force I needed. It was good enough to pass UTD Essentials but at Tech-1 level I was required to have a solid back kick. I would assume that GUE also works the same way.