Importance of back kick in Cave Diving?

[Ayisha]

I would even say... no fundies tech rating without being able to show the above.

Yes, definitely. The standards for a GUE Fundies Tech Pass require a "competent" back kick, helicopter kick, plus 2 other proficient propulsion techniques from a short list of possibilities.

 

[Rechno]

Such a weird thing to discuss.

People really think it’s ok to go cave diving when you don’t have a way to back up when you get too close to something other than push it with your hands?

I agree with you, that if you have to use your hands in any situation IOT move backwards, you should not be in a cave. However, I still see a huge difference between a perfect, textbook back-kick and one that does not look perfect, but still gets you moving backwards (without damaging anything or silting things up).

There is a cave in Texas called Jacob's Well. Claimed a couple of diver and free divers over the years. The problem is that there is a false chimney. You can see light, but it narrows very rapidly.

You tell me how important it is to be able to back kick.

I´d say before I die in a chimney it would be excusable to push myself backwards (and guess that most people would do so). So I dont see the causel context between lack of back-kick and death in that situation.

 

[Lorenzoid]

I agree with you, that if you have to use your hands in any situation IOT move backwards, you should not be in a cave. However, I still see a huge difference between a perfect, textbook back-kick and one that does not look perfect, but still gets you moving backwards (without damaging anything or silting things up).

I don’t believe the poll that’s the subject of this thread said “perfect, textbook back-kick.” If GUE’s requirement is the threshold the poll is tacitly referring to, I believe all that GUE requires is a “competent” back-kick, as @Ayisha said. Competent, effective, etc.

 

[beester]

I don’t believe the poll that’s the subject of this thread said “perfect, textbook back-kick.” If GUE’s requirement is the threshold the poll is tacitly referring to, I believe all that GUE requires is a “competent” back-kick, as @Ayisha said. Competent, effective, etc.

The kicker (excuse the pun) in this is that for most divers starting GUE C1, the issue is not the back kick but the modified flutter

 

[CptTightPants21]

The kicker (excuse the pun) in this is that for most divers starting GUE C1, the issue is not the back kick but the modified flutter

LOL. So true (although I think it was the flutter). They had a big hubbub about it. Issued guidance or a standards announcement that all students needed decent flutter kicks because the students thought it was Beneath them and the Florida C1 instructors were getting students that couldn't handle the flow.

 

[CptTightPants21]

Really what I think this boils down to is that you MUST be able to go backwards consistently by the time you are given a cavern/intro cave card. It doesn't have to pretty and maybe you can't backup for more than 30 seconds against a decent current, but you should be able to back up when tying a spool or doing an S-drill.

By Full Cave, you should have a complete back kick. GUE essentially accelerate this-competent by fundies, full back kick by end of Cave 1.

 

[Lorenzoid]

LOL. So true (although I think it was the flutter). They had a big hubbub about it. Issued guidance or a standards announcement that all students needed decent flutter kicks because the students thought it was Beneath them and the Florida C1 instructors were getting students that couldn't handle the flow.

Oh yeah. In my most recent coaching session with a GUE instructor, that was discussed, and we worked on my flutter. For the benefit of others reading this, the GUE flutter is not quite like what the rest of the world thinks of as a flutter kick.

 

[rjack321]

LOL. So true (although I think it was the flutter). They had a big hubbub about it. Issued guidance or a standards announcement that all students needed decent flutter kicks because the students thought it was Beneath them and the Florida C1 instructors were getting students that couldn't handle the flow.

Actually on of the prime instigators of this was Lynne (TS&M) her flutter kick and ability to *move* in flow was never good at all. After her incomplete effort at C2 with David Rhea in FL there was a big wakeup call that (GUE-F, C1 etc) students were not well rounded and as capable of power kicks as they needed to be.

 

[CptTightPants21]

Actually on of the prime instigators of this was Lynne (TS&M) her flutter kick and ability to *move* in flow was never good at all. After her incomplete effort at C2 with David Rhea in FL there was a big wakeup call that (GUE-F, C1 etc) students were not well rounded and as capable of power kicks as they needed to be.

Thanks for the more detailed account. Man, I still miss her posts. She did her Cave 1 in MX with Danny Riordan so I could see how she could get to Cave 2 without it being adequately addressed and how getting a student in Cave 2 that couldn't effectively flutter kick would raise a red flag. I used to think that dropping the knees was the biggest issue, but I have been seeing other fundies classes conducted and there are a whole host of things that hurt it's efficiency--gyrating hips, legs too far apart, kick cycle too long, etc.

 

[Nirvana]

I find the back kick to be very useful. In fact, I believe it's a technique I use every dive, be it while communicating with a team mate, tying line for a jump or just backing away from a formation I had wanted to get a closer look. I think this is a skill that should, preferably, be part of the basis on which to build a cave diving skillset.

That said, I don't believe it has ever come to being critical for completing a dive safely and without damage to the environment (a finger push on a sturdy formation would have been needed several times, though). Therefore, I can see an instructor issuing a cave diver certification for a student that, for some reason, has a specific issue with back kicking but is otherwise a well-rounded diver.