Immediate CESA Vs. looking for your buddy...
- Thread starter Bigeclipse
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I don't think they're a big deal, but I don't believe 30 or 60 fpm ascent rates from these depths are realistic unless you're a trained freediver. How long did they take to come up?
OP
Bigeclipse
Contributor
That's what I'd do, too. I wouldn't say "extremely" lucky but I'm sure you know the theory: the more gas you have in your tissues, the greater chance of it bubbling out during rapid ascent. So the deal gets bigger toward the end of a dive... but then realizing the surface isn't anywhere as close as it looks and you really really must breathe NOW isn't much fun either.
Steelyeyes
Contributor
Back in the day four of us were diving the M/V Cormoran/Tokai Maru wrecks off of the Glass Breakwater in Guam. My buddy and I were at 50 feet or so dealing with an ear squeeze. The other buddy team had made it to about 100 FSW. They were about 10 feet apart with one buddy momentarily looking away from the other when the first one had a regulator failure. Half breath of air and then nothing but water. This was in about 1980 and none of us had seen a secondary regulator yet. The OOA diver later said, "I had no air, I looked at my buddy and knew I had to get to him, communicate the issue and start buddy breathing. Then I looked up at a certain source of air and started swimming".
My buddy and I saw him come and and pass us with his buddy ascending behind him. We aborted our dive and made a normal ascent to join them at the surface. At the time the diver making the emergency ascent didn't complain of any problems.
We got to the rental car and opted to go straight to the Naval Medical Clinic to have him checked out. Luckily the MD on duty worked with Navy divers. Later we found out that our buddy had coughed up small amounts of blood. He didn't end up in a chamber but he got read the riot act from the doctor.
CESAs are a big deal. Every precaution should be taken to avoid them.
My buddy and I saw him come and and pass us with his buddy ascending behind him. We aborted our dive and made a normal ascent to join them at the surface. At the time the diver making the emergency ascent didn't complain of any problems.
We got to the rental car and opted to go straight to the Naval Medical Clinic to have him checked out. Luckily the MD on duty worked with Navy divers. Later we found out that our buddy had coughed up small amounts of blood. He didn't end up in a chamber but he got read the riot act from the doctor.
CESAs are a big deal. Every precaution should be taken to avoid them.
MrBigfins
Contributor
Better yet dont have a buddy you have to look for. I take my responsibility as a buddy seriously and I expect the same from my buddy. You are no use to me as a buddy if you are more than 2 kicks away.
You're absolutely right! Two kicks away is what I teach my students. Yet respectfully, it unfortunately just doesn't stand up to the reality of much vacation diving.
We've already hit on the correct plan, and it doesn't really require the two of you to be glued at the hip, training standards notwithstanding.
1) Make sure your gear is in proper order. To wit: Regulator Inspection and Checklist (Rev-8)
2) Briefly, brief emergency procedures with your buddy before you splash, along with expectations
3) Do a real buddy check. In other words, not only make sure of your own gear, but look at your buddy. Where is your emergency air?
4) Have a plan. If you're in the shallows, who cares? A CESA will do just fine. At the 60' level, be within 20 seconds of each other. Have an emergency signal, for when your buddy is looking at that shrimp, and your reg just started breathing wet (but how did that happen after #1?). My signal is 2 + 2 "tics" with my tank banger. Yeah, guys are signaling all the time. Tap, tap, tap. But "tic-tic, tic-tic" stands out to my buddy, because he/she knows that's the emergency signal. If he's not looking at me, he'll find me as I'm swimming for him. Air share, problem fixed.
5) At deep depths, plan accordingly. Redundant air? Two kicks away? Things you won't do on the dive? Rock bottom gas numbers?
6) Practice OOA drills. With you're faced with an Instabuddy and a dive at depth, maybe agree to do one drill at 5 feet before descending. Along with a bubble check. With your regular partner, "regular" drills is enough, whatever that means.
7) Decide on your contingency plan. CESA up to 60-100 ft. Emergency Buoyant Ascent below that. Understand that if it happens late in the dive, you may get bent.
And that last makes things come full circle. If your plan comes hard up against a lack of emergency resources, or a marginal Instabuddy, or your accidental failure to pre-check some part of your gear before a deep dive, rethink your plan.
But having all the options means having all the options. You can say, "I'm not going to carry a pony". Folks argue pros and cons all the time. But you can't say, "I'm not going to bother checking my gear." You can't say, "I'm sure my gear is okay even though I haven't checked it and I have an Instabuddy and we're diving Magic Mountain to 110' and I can't remember the last time I did a practice CESA." You can't ignore 1, 2, 5, 6 and 7 and be surprised at the outcome, when it would only have taken you a little effort to prepare. And in my opinion, all the options means practicing one of those "unsafe" CESA's every couple of years from 30 feet at the beginning of a dive, before you've nitrogen loaded.
Sermon over.
MrBigfins
Contributor
You're absolutely right! Two kicks away is what I teach my students. Yet respectfully, it unfortunately just doesn't stand up to the reality of much vacation diving.
We've already hit on the correct plan, and it doesn't really require the two of you to be glued at the hip, training standards notwithstanding.
1) Make sure your gear is in proper order. To wit: Regulator Inspection and Checklist (Rev-8)
2) Briefly, brief emergency procedures with your buddy before you splash, along with expectations
3) Do a real buddy check. In other words, not only make sure of your own gear, but look at your buddy. Where is your emergency air?
4) Have a plan. If you're in the shallows, who cares? A CESA will do just fine. At the 60' level, be within 20 seconds of each other. Have an emergency signal, for when your buddy is looking at that shrimp, and your reg just started breathing wet (but how did that happen after #1?). My signal is 2 + 2 "tics" with my tank banger. Yeah, guys are signaling all the time. Tap, tap, tap. But "tic-tic, tic-tic" stands out to my buddy, because he/she knows that's the emergency signal. If he's not looking at me, he'll find me as I'm swimming for him. Air share, problem fixed.
5) At deep depths, plan accordingly. Redundant air? Two kicks away? Things you won't do on the dive? Rock bottom gas numbers?
6) Practice OOA drills. With you're faced with an Instabuddy and a dive at depth, maybe agree to do one drill at 5 feet before descending. Along with a bubble check. With your regular partner, "regular" drills is enough, whatever that means.
7) Decide on your contingency plan. CESA up to 60-100 ft. Emergency Buoyant Ascent below that. Understand that if it happens late in the dive, you may get bent.
And that last makes things come full circle. If your plan comes hard up against a lack of emergency resources, or a marginal Instabuddy, or your accidental failure to pre-check some part of your gear before a deep dive, rethink your plan.
But having all the options means having all the options. You can say, "I'm not going to carry a pony". Folks argue pros and cons all the time. But you can't say, "I'm not going to bother checking my gear." You can't say, "I'm sure my gear is okay even though I haven't checked it and I have an Instabuddy and we're diving Magic Mountain to 110' and I can't remember the last time I did a practice CESA." You can't ignore 1, 2, 5, 6 and 7 and be surprised at the outcome, when it would only have taken you a little effort to prepare. And in my opinion, all the options means practicing one of those "unsafe" CESA's every couple of years from 30 feet at the beginning of a dive, before you've nitrogen loaded.
Sermon over.
1 agree totally
2 agree and feel it is part of number 3
I use primary donate and switch to my alternate or to a 19cf pony.
3 see above and Bubble check anyone?
4 my son is my dive buddy the majority of the time, so I'm a little more stringent on what THE PLAN is and have a bit more control that it be followed to the letter than your typical buddy team. So that being the plan coupled with alot of either lower vis or drift diving, means my buddy should be within 2 kicks.
I like the sound signal and will be using that, although it wont be of much help as he seems to be as deaf underwater as he is when asked to do something above water.
5 is essentially the same as a good version of 4
6 we practise skills at all our safety stops. Sometimes its pa or deploying smb etc
7 shot has to go really sideways for us to be at this point. My buddy has a primary reg and if it fails then they have an alternate, if it fails I have an alternate and if that fails we can both slowly make our way to surface on the pony with much less chance of DCS.
Just because something is an option, doesnt mean it's the best option or even a good one. Now if it did hit the fan to the point it is required, a CESA is a much better option then drowning.
I agree that there are trainings, precautions, and practices that should minimize the chances of an OOA/CESA situation but in real life Stuff Happens.
I mostly dive with my wife and (now adult) children. Our rule is to stay within two arm-lengths of your buddy at any depth below 60 or 65 feet (or with a large group, two arm-lengths from another potential source of air).
Rsingler would be happy to know that we have never had trouble with keeping to this rule on vacations or otherwise. I must live a charmed life because I've had no trouble getting vacation insta-buddies to see the wisdom in this as well.
Secondly we all make a practice of taking occasional breaths off the octo during descent and at depth (thus we will find out early if it not working or misplaced.
Thirdly we start the *first dive of every dive vacation* with a quick skills review including an OOA drill with a simulated "panicked" OOA diver. (That is I how I learned it back in the day.) After reading this thread, I think we should incorporate the complication of having the panicked OOA diver accidentally dislodge the donor's secondary from its usual location.
I mostly dive with my wife and (now adult) children. Our rule is to stay within two arm-lengths of your buddy at any depth below 60 or 65 feet (or with a large group, two arm-lengths from another potential source of air).
Rsingler would be happy to know that we have never had trouble with keeping to this rule on vacations or otherwise. I must live a charmed life because I've had no trouble getting vacation insta-buddies to see the wisdom in this as well.
Secondly we all make a practice of taking occasional breaths off the octo during descent and at depth (thus we will find out early if it not working or misplaced.
Thirdly we start the *first dive of every dive vacation* with a quick skills review including an OOA drill with a simulated "panicked" OOA diver. (That is I how I learned it back in the day.) After reading this thread, I think we should incorporate the complication of having the panicked OOA diver accidentally dislodge the donor's secondary from its usual location.
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