Immediate CESA Vs. looking for your buddy...
- Thread starter Bigeclipse
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Charles Graves
Registered
Inexperienced divers are going to do what they are going to do, and obviously at that point there is no "stopping him" from frantically swimming to the surface. So you gotta just let him go, obviously, and stay close enough so that he can grab some air if he needs it.
However, being a calmer diver myself, I would simply calmly look down for my reg, and I would trade off the reg back and forth with regular intermission, calmly, until I had found my octopus (spare air).
One way to do it is to lean to the right and slightly down, and let the octopus fall that way. or you can try leaning the other way and see if it falls that way. Another way is to reach behind you and see if you can gently feel where the cords are going, and see where it meets the reg, and do it that way.
Doing a CESA is obviously dangerous for 2 reasons,
1) You can run out of air, especially from 100 feet if it's cold air which sucks your oxygen faster from your body.
2) You can get some nasty DCS that'll mess you up good
Reminder: You can die from either 1 or 2
So because of that, I wouldn't surface unless I wasn't able to find my spare air for more than 2-3 minutes (all while keeping an eye on my SPG pressure gauge). And of course, maybe you can surface 20 feet or so at first, just so that you're using air more slowly. You also can start surfacing NORMALLY, at the 1 foot per second rule, and do your 3 minute safety stop at 15 feet.
You can really trade the reg the entire way up. It's not an issue. Me and my wife were just casually practicing "out of air scenarios" when we were in Florida scuba diving, and this was one of the ones that we practiced. We just traded off the air from like 100 feet down or so, as we slowly made our way up normally to our safety stop, and I was looking at the depth gauge off and on the whole time. We just locked one of our hands to make sure we stayed with each other and then used our other hands for the reg and any de-inflation needed while going up.
Yeah, diving can be scary if it's a really bad situation, but... This really isn't that bad of a situation as long as you are calm about things. Try being cave diving when a random silt out happens- THAT sh*t is scary.
However, being a calmer diver myself, I would simply calmly look down for my reg, and I would trade off the reg back and forth with regular intermission, calmly, until I had found my octopus (spare air).
One way to do it is to lean to the right and slightly down, and let the octopus fall that way. or you can try leaning the other way and see if it falls that way. Another way is to reach behind you and see if you can gently feel where the cords are going, and see where it meets the reg, and do it that way.
Doing a CESA is obviously dangerous for 2 reasons,
1) You can run out of air, especially from 100 feet if it's cold air which sucks your oxygen faster from your body.
2) You can get some nasty DCS that'll mess you up good
Reminder: You can die from either 1 or 2
So because of that, I wouldn't surface unless I wasn't able to find my spare air for more than 2-3 minutes (all while keeping an eye on my SPG pressure gauge). And of course, maybe you can surface 20 feet or so at first, just so that you're using air more slowly. You also can start surfacing NORMALLY, at the 1 foot per second rule, and do your 3 minute safety stop at 15 feet.
You can really trade the reg the entire way up. It's not an issue. Me and my wife were just casually practicing "out of air scenarios" when we were in Florida scuba diving, and this was one of the ones that we practiced. We just traded off the air from like 100 feet down or so, as we slowly made our way up normally to our safety stop, and I was looking at the depth gauge off and on the whole time. We just locked one of our hands to make sure we stayed with each other and then used our other hands for the reg and any de-inflation needed while going up.
Yeah, diving can be scary if it's a really bad situation, but... This really isn't that bad of a situation as long as you are calm about things. Try being cave diving when a random silt out happens- THAT sh*t is scary.
Can you calmly hold your breath (preferably while keeping you glottis open, of course) for 2-3 minutes?
2airishuman
Contributor
Hi Bigeclipse
Thanks for posting. Sorry I'm late to the party but there are a couple of points that have been minimized or missed that I would like to bring up.
Lack of service has already been covered.
Ability to breathe a wet reg has not. It is nearly always possible to breathe from a reg that is breathing wet. There are really only three things that can cause it:
1) Problems with the mouthpiece. It could be loose, or torn, or pulled off completely.
2) Problems with the diaphragm. It could be torn, or not sealing against the reg body.
3) Folded, torn, stuck, ripped, etc. exhaust valve.
Whatever the cause, you can breathe the reg by feathering the purge button, and pointing your face more or less down if necessary, and holding your tongue so that you block the water coming into your mouth.
A reg that breathes wet is not an emergency.
Two points here.
1) I'm a big fan of necklaced secondaries. You can still forget to put the necklace on, but otherwise, it's always in the same spot and you can find it, and there's no reliance on the BC having a place to clip it.
2) Anyone can reach back and follow the hoses, as they were trained, and find a reg, and there is enough time to do it. With a buddy, it is even easier.
No, it would not, and I believe that it is irresponsible to advocate for a CESA or buddy breathing as the best way to solve that problem, regardless of whether it was a cool thing in Los Angeles county 50 years ago.
People die doing CESAs, which is why they are a last resort. Regardless of the real reasons secondaries were introduced (there are various conspiracy theories), the fact of the matter is that their widespread use has improved dive safety, because people were dying when they tried to buddy breathe, with startling regularity, back in the 60s and 70s.
I don't believe that there is any evidence to suggest that a CESA is any more dangerous if it is delayed by a reasonable period of time (15 seconds) spent exhausting options that are safer.
People should follow their training.
Thanks for posting. Sorry I'm late to the party but there are a couple of points that have been minimized or missed that I would like to bring up.
Lack of service has already been covered.
Ability to breathe a wet reg has not. It is nearly always possible to breathe from a reg that is breathing wet. There are really only three things that can cause it:
1) Problems with the mouthpiece. It could be loose, or torn, or pulled off completely.
2) Problems with the diaphragm. It could be torn, or not sealing against the reg body.
3) Folded, torn, stuck, ripped, etc. exhaust valve.
Whatever the cause, you can breathe the reg by feathering the purge button, and pointing your face more or less down if necessary, and holding your tongue so that you block the water coming into your mouth.
A reg that breathes wet is not an emergency.
Two points here.
1) I'm a big fan of necklaced secondaries. You can still forget to put the necklace on, but otherwise, it's always in the same spot and you can find it, and there's no reliance on the BC having a place to clip it.
2) Anyone can reach back and follow the hoses, as they were trained, and find a reg, and there is enough time to do it. With a buddy, it is even easier.
No, it would not, and I believe that it is irresponsible to advocate for a CESA or buddy breathing as the best way to solve that problem, regardless of whether it was a cool thing in Los Angeles county 50 years ago.
People die doing CESAs, which is why they are a last resort. Regardless of the real reasons secondaries were introduced (there are various conspiracy theories), the fact of the matter is that their widespread use has improved dive safety, because people were dying when they tried to buddy breathe, with startling regularity, back in the 60s and 70s.
I don't believe that there is any evidence to suggest that a CESA is any more dangerous if it is delayed by a reasonable period of time (15 seconds) spent exhausting options that are safer.
People should follow their training.
EireDiver606
Contributor
I’m sure this has been repeated a few times but I’m going to say this although I have not read the whole thread.
This entire thread is unnecessary as proper planning, gas management, equipment maintenance, awareness and communication should prevent this situation from even occurring (in theory
).
IMHO, we shouldn’t be discussing/ focusing on what to do if “XYZ” happens. We should be discussing what to do/ or to implement so that “XYZ” does not happen/ or it’s likeability is lessened significantly.
What does everyone else think?
This entire thread is unnecessary as proper planning, gas management, equipment maintenance, awareness and communication should prevent this situation from even occurring (in theory
).IMHO, we shouldn’t be discussing/ focusing on what to do if “XYZ” happens. We should be discussing what to do/ or to implement so that “XYZ” does not happen/ or it’s likeability is lessened significantly.
What does everyone else think?
I think what everyone needs is crystal balls. So they can look into them, see "XYZ" happen, and not go there.
elgoog
Contributor
Let him frantically swim to the surface while you keep up that same frantic pace calmly so you can stay close enough to give him air? So, both of you are bolting to the surface, one frantically and one calmly. Not really sure what the difference is here between you and the inexperienced diver.
The gas in your tank is going to be the same temperature no matter what depth you're at. Sounds like you're confusing gas consumption relative to depth with temperature.
Also, cold air sucking oxygen faster from your body isn't a thing.
If you're in a CESA situation, you're still going to do the 3 minute safety stop?!?! Your ability to control and hold your breath must be amazing.
Yeah, almost all situations will be "not that bad" if you're calm. If only everyone would just stay calm ...
Probably because you don't know how to manage silt outs due to your lack of cave diving training? Quoting this directly from your profile in case you decide to remove it later - "Competent cave diver (Working on official certification when I have time, but willing to do basic easy caves without silt as I have the equipment)"
Unrelated to this conversation but I feel like I have to say this because of what you said - PLEASE get cave diving training before you go back into caves. Your approach of "I have the equipment" and "certification when I have time" is really dangerous.
Having made a "CESA" for real - I'll put my actual experiences out there. (I've written about this before so apologies if i'm repeating myself)
There has been a lot of hypothesis in this thread from people who've never done it. Of have only made a CESA in controlled conditions for which they were mentally prepared before hand
In my case I had a laryngospasm. As mentioned above I had approx 70Cf (2000l) of gas remaining in 2 redundant systems. I was in the Red Sea so vis was about 60m (200') and the problem occured at 23m (72')
After swapping from one reg to another I was only left with one option. This was and obvious and instinctive decision. My buddy (wife) was only 10' away - but even then whether instinct or otherwise I went vertical to head for the surface and "safety"
I was not panicked - I kept my reg in my mouth and was consciously thinking all the way up. The best way to describe my thoughts would be that you could read 4 columns of text on a sheet of paper at teh same time and fully comprehend them
My thoughts (I can remember pretty clearly were this):
The surface is a long way away
What is the problem, why can't I breathe?
This would be a stupid way to die
I can remember the feeling of my diaphragm and my chest heaving to try to get oxygen.
According to my computer - based on it's data sampling of 15 sec intervals I ascended 10m /30' in approx 30 seconds. Fortunately at this point the laryngospasm ceased and I was able to breath
I was divign a balanced rig, this was the 25th dive of the vacation so I was precisely weighted but had no weight belt to drop. It never occured to me to want to drop a weight belt - whether because I never wear them thus not part of my memory or whether it would never occur to me.
I can kick quite hard, am used to fighting in currents, so this ascent rate was my maximum. Maybe if I were panicked I might have gone faster - it my subconscious functions had fully taken over. Because I hadn't' crossed into the 2ATA - 1ATA zone, buoyancy changes weren't great, had I ascended a bit further than I assume my ascent rate would have increased
It never occured to me to inflate my wing to increase my rate of ascent
I know from experience that I can resolve issues underwater, but I am also left with the nagging feeling, that had the laryngospasm not ceased at 11m, would I have successfully made it to the surface?
There has been a lot of hypothesis in this thread from people who've never done it. Of have only made a CESA in controlled conditions for which they were mentally prepared before hand
In my case I had a laryngospasm. As mentioned above I had approx 70Cf (2000l) of gas remaining in 2 redundant systems. I was in the Red Sea so vis was about 60m (200') and the problem occured at 23m (72')
After swapping from one reg to another I was only left with one option. This was and obvious and instinctive decision. My buddy (wife) was only 10' away - but even then whether instinct or otherwise I went vertical to head for the surface and "safety"
I was not panicked - I kept my reg in my mouth and was consciously thinking all the way up. The best way to describe my thoughts would be that you could read 4 columns of text on a sheet of paper at teh same time and fully comprehend them
My thoughts (I can remember pretty clearly were this):
The surface is a long way away
What is the problem, why can't I breathe?
This would be a stupid way to die
I can remember the feeling of my diaphragm and my chest heaving to try to get oxygen.
According to my computer - based on it's data sampling of 15 sec intervals I ascended 10m /30' in approx 30 seconds. Fortunately at this point the laryngospasm ceased and I was able to breath
I was divign a balanced rig, this was the 25th dive of the vacation so I was precisely weighted but had no weight belt to drop. It never occured to me to want to drop a weight belt - whether because I never wear them thus not part of my memory or whether it would never occur to me.
I can kick quite hard, am used to fighting in currents, so this ascent rate was my maximum. Maybe if I were panicked I might have gone faster - it my subconscious functions had fully taken over. Because I hadn't' crossed into the 2ATA - 1ATA zone, buoyancy changes weren't great, had I ascended a bit further than I assume my ascent rate would have increased
It never occured to me to inflate my wing to increase my rate of ascent
I know from experience that I can resolve issues underwater, but I am also left with the nagging feeling, that had the laryngospasm not ceased at 11m, would I have successfully made it to the surface?
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Here's two ways:
I had a 2nd stage separate from the hose once - one second gas, the next was water and a whipping LP hose blowing bubbles everywhere. It was the start of the dive in ~12-15ft of water. The hose was whipping around so much I had no idea what was going on and getting to my backup reg never crossed my mine. I exhaled and kicked up. I have no idea how the hose unscrewed, I was never the type to leave mine hand tight.
Once I saw someone go completely OOA even though there gas in the tank. They weren't my buddy but someone (who might not have been there buddy, possibly just a closer diver) donated them an octo and they ascended. Turns out there was water in the tank. The diver tipped downwards to look in a hole and it ran into the valve's dip tube. The adiabatic cooling froze that water in the first stage. We figured it out when we took the reg off and there was ice in the (yoke) valve/reg interface. This was about 22 yrs ago.
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