If you were to design your own OW course, how would it go?

Do you feel about your Open Water training? (Up to 2 choices)

  • ^^ Had to retake OW with a different instructor/agency.

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Students on the knees frequently feel awkward as they are constantly fighting to keep from tipping over.

This was my experience. Kneeling is only a stable position if you are VERY over weighted. During my OW dives I was probably about 10 lb positive with empty BCD at the depth we did the skills. There wasn't quite a current, but the water was moving around a bit, and I just didn't have enough weight to stay in place given even the slightest push. So I was sculling like crazy with my arms to avoid toppling over, and occasionally tilting way to one side. This was stressful and distracting.

Later on once we got neutral, I stopped feeling any water motion at all. Without part of my body touching the bottom, I could naturally move back and forth with the water, so immediately relaxed. It was trivial to kick maybe one a minute to offset the tiny current.
 
I didn't go on knees due to cramping back then (before the potassium pills...). I put one leg bent in front, one behind, and felt it was quite stable, especially in the pool, of course.
As I've posted before, I agree that neutral from the start is best. But I do figure that does have to do with simply more practice neutrally--during the class/pool, etc.--, as opposed to being able to do the certain few skills that you would have to do neutrally in real life being better honed if done neutrally in the course.
Examples are mask clearing (no one had to tell me head angles differ when swimming as opposed to sitting), or reg retrieval (big deal, you do the swoop while swimming instead of how you learned it kneeling--same idea, not rocket science).
There might be several other skills you must do while neutral and there may be several that you must do neutral in real life that would become harder if you learned them kneeling. What would a list of those be?
Again, I favour teaching neutrally from the get go. But more for turning out better divers from the get go, as opposed to the those divers being able to do the relevant skills (much?) better.
 
Actually I liked my open water certification :)
it worked, we were happy, got value for our money and returned for our advanced certs the following year with the same instructor

I think we did 3 evenings of theory and 3 pool sessions of two hours, preceded by more theory and followed by a debriefing with video from a fourth diver. In the first pool session we were breathing prone on the bottom, then gradually the instructor made us add a bit of air till we floated neutral and horizontal (as much as he could wring from first timers) then we went for our first underwater swim.

Open water part was 8 dives, 2 dives per day in two weekends, from 8 AM to 8 PM... that was exhausting - new divers, assembling their gear, suiting up, moving tanks and so on. No one helped us since the goal was to teach us to be autonomous, and it's ok, but at the end of the day were dead nonetheless

I learned with my girlfriend, so we were 2 out of a maximum of 3 students, and after the checkout dives we did a further pool day with the swim test and some extra work on our kicks.
 
Actually I liked my open water certification :)
it worked, we were happy, got value for our money and returned for our advanced certs the following year with the same instructor

I think we did 3 evenings of theory and 3 pool sessions of two hours, preceded by more theory and followed by a debriefing with video from a fourth diver. In the first pool session we were breathing prone on the bottom, then gradually the instructor made us add a bit of air till we floated neutral and horizontal (as much as he could wring from first timers) then we went for our first underwater swim.

Open water part was 8 dives, 2 dives per day in two weekends, from 8 AM to 8 PM... that was exhausting - new divers, assembling their gear, suiting up, moving tanks and so on. No one helped us since the goal was to teach us to be autonomous, and it's ok, but at the end of the day were dead nonetheless

I learned with my girlfriend, so we were 2 out of a maximum of 3 students, and after the checkout dives we did a further pool day with the swim test and some extra work on our kicks.
Interesting course. Maybe a little less pool time than the one I took, but 8 open water dives instead of 4. What agency?--your profile says " no one".
 
Copy/pasted from Divers' Alert Network 2016 Annual Diving Report (I have highlighted some points which I'd like to expand on):

"Ten Most Wanted Improvements in Scuba:
Correct Weighting
Greater Buoyancy Control
More Attention to Gas Planning
Better Ascent Rate Control

Increased Use of Checklists
Fewer Equalizing Injuries
Improved Cardiovascular Health in Divers
Diving More Often (or more pre-trip Refresher Training)
Greater Attention to Diving Within Limits
Fewer Equipment Issues / Improved Maintenance"

I believe it's fair to assume agreement that correct weighting, bouyancy control, ascend rate control and to a at the very least a large extend, equalizing injuries (assuming it relates to bouyancy control during descend), are all quite intertwined.
These, along with gas planning, are very, very basic diving skills.

When Divers' Alert Network call for improvement like this, to me, that's a very clear sign.

On a side note, I think more items intertwine, for instance better cardiovascular health or diving more often, compared to diving within limits (I personally feel that diving within limits is too underestimated - it would seem that DAN feel the same way).

My take on it is, one would be hard pressed to not want to change anything in diver training, when DAN is saying there is a problem with items so closely correlated to basic scuba skills.

Now, I know there are great instructors who go above and beyond in any and all organizations - here, I'm addressing a more general approach to what entry-level diver training should focus on, in light of the above, across the industry.

To me, it seems obvious that when dive students are parked on their knees with a tonne of lead on them, they'll get a poor basis for learning bouyancy (and ascend rate control, obviously), while also creating issues in terms of balancing.

Sitting on the knees and learning how to clear a mask is a great way to certify students who can't clear a mask while hovering, hence creating the perfect foundation for an uncontrolled ascend if a mask is ever kicked off during a dive.
Overweighting will make an ascend/descend more difficult to manage, and there you have your equalizing issues or worse. It will also set up the student in an unbalanced configuration, which means their only chance of recovering from an uncontrolled descend, is to drop the lead belt and instead get an uncontrolled ascend.

As for gas planning, surely we can all agree, divers should be able to calculate how much gas it will take them and another diver to the surface safely, from the deepest point of the dive.
I invite you to do the math on a "50 bar" policy, and a "thirds" policy on a 30m anchorline boat dive.
Spoiler: It's not enough gas in either case, unless using a very big tank (non-global application).

Now, I'm not out to toot my own horn here, but I practice education that is formalized in approaching all of these points - BUT, there is a catch, of course:
It's limiting me as an instructor. I can't comfortably carry out that training with, say, 10 students at a time.
Where I'm at geographically, 4 is my limit.

So, bottom line I have three points:

1) If I have to charge X to run a course and I have 4 students rather than, to illustrate, 10, the cost will be significantly higher per student. Therefore, there is at least some mechanism of quality versus cost relation.
Hence, I postulate that $99 dive courses water down dive training quality.

2) If the foundation that a student learns to dive on, is skewered, that diver will immediately be worse off - exponentially so given progression. As DAN points to, a lot of the issues they see, relate to very specific training paradigms in relatively wide application.
Hence, I postulate that teaching students on their knees and overweight, is watering down dive training quality, and causing issues as mentioned above by DAN.

3) If an industry widely and publicly supports these paradigms, it will become normalized given lack of either intervention or some mechanism of transparency for free market functions to work (customers understanding the difference between best and cheapest);
If or when we see any standards supporting large classes or formal add-on classes to teach skills that should be covered by initial training (bouyancy, for instance), this effectively stands proxy for an authorititary approvement.
Hence, I postulate that the industry does too little to address the issues mentioned by DAN.

However:
In defence of the industry - if I were to set up the worst conceivable environment for an industry to operate, it would certainly include liability for previously taught practices.
When diving organizations, which in a significant number of cases have existed for many decades in a comparatively young industry, are limited in their ability to adapt to new practices due to concerns of liability for the practices previously taught, it naturally and generally limits agencies from adaptation.
For instance, Buddy-breathing protocol:
This protocol makes sense if using one single 2.-stage to support two divers during an exit.
At one point in time, having only one 2.-stage was normal, as 2.-stages were more difficult to obtain.
However, in a world of the present liability paradigm, upon normalization of a spare 2.-stage, how could any agency change this procedure without implicitly making itself vulnerable to such liability in court of law (assuming divers had previously died - for whichever reason - while performing buddy-breathing protocol in an emergency.
And so, buddy breathing was still taught by industry leaders well into the 2000´s, which is unsensible considering the normalization of a spare 2.-stage.
Hence, I postulate that the legislative domain imposes upon customers/divers a risk by maintaing a policy that limits adaptation. Instead, it should hold liable any operator or agency that doesn't fulfill its role to best knowledge available at any given time.
 
I fully agree that both overweighting students and teaching on the knees are poor practices that should be eliminated. I fully agree that they are related--if you are teaching students on the knees, they have to be overweighted.

On the other hand, in the context of this thread, that point is the opposite of the term "watered down." The phrase refers to modern practices as opposed to past practice. The full, pre-edited version of the article we submitted to PADI on neutral buoyancy instruction included a section on the history of teaching on the knees. It was part of instruction from the very beginning because there was then no means to achieve buoyancy--the wetsuit hadn't even been invented yet. Kneeling was a natural way to teach skills then. Early buoyancy control devices tended to put people upright, so the practice continued. It was thus always a part of instruction.

Teaching students who are properly weighted, neutrally buoyant, and in horizontal trim is thus a feature of modern instruction that has only been adopted by a small minority of instructors. It is an improvement over past practice, not a watering down of past practice.
 
I understand that it's not fiscally possible BUT ...

I would do the basic safety stuff and then people would practice buoyancy till they got it down. Only then could they continue. All skills completed while suspended - nothing done on knees on bottom - ever. During checkout, if they touch bottom, they fail.
 
I fully agree that both overweighting students and teaching on the knees are poor practices that should be eliminated. I fully agree that they are related--if you are teaching students on the knees, they have to be overweighted.

On the other hand, in the context of this thread, that point is the opposite of the term "watered down." The phrase refers to modern practices as opposed to past practice. The full, pre-edited version of the article we submitted to PADI on neutral buoyancy instruction included a section on the history of teaching on the knees. It was part of instruction from the very beginning because there was then no means to achieve buoyancy--the wetsuit hadn't even been invented yet. Kneeling was a natural way to teach skills then. Early buoyancy control devices tended to put people upright, so the practice continued. It was thus always a part of instruction.

Teaching students who are properly weighted, neutrally buoyant, and in horizontal trim is thus a feature of modern instruction that has only been adopted by a small minority of instructors. It is an improvement over past practice, not a watering down of past practice.

I appreciate what you're saying, and I can't help but think it's off that a pre-neoprene protocol solution still is in wide-spread application. But I do agree that proper weighting, neutral bouyancy, horizontal trim is an improvement over it.

I understand that it's not fiscally possible BUT ...

I would do the basic safety stuff and then people would practice buoyancy till they got it down. Only then could they continue. All skills completed while suspended - nothing done on knees on bottom - ever. During checkout, if they touch bottom, they fail.

It's already made formally, and in application :)
Bouyancy first, skills second, and then proceeding to open water.
 
I understand that it's not fiscally possible BUT ...
Why would you post this? Of course it's fiscally possible.
 

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