Ice Diving Regulator

[JKSteger]

This is where I end up offending all the hard core Scubapro fans.

Tabata manufactuers Scubapro's designs to Scubapro's specifications. It is a common practice in the scuba industry where a relatively few companies manufacture designs for all the rest of the companies. For the relatively low volume production involved it would not be practical or economical for a company, even a large one like Scubapro, to have their own exclusive manufacturing facilities. By farming production out companies can acces state of the art facilities for a fraction of the cost rquired to build and maintain private facilities. The design work is still done by Scubapro, the patents are held by Scubapro and the contract will require the regs that are produced to meet whatever QC standards Scubapro sets, but the actual manufacter of the regulator is done by Tabata.

Tabata has a US subsidiary, Tabata USA (TUSA for short). Tabata and Scubapro normally enter into a manufacturing agreement where Tabata manufactures the regulator exclusively for Scubapro until the exclusive rights expire. At that point Tabata has the option to produce a mechanically identical but slightly cosmetically altered version that it then markets through TUSA. So...the RS460 is indeed a Mk 16 clone produced on the same tooling in the same factory to the same specifications. In the same manner, the TUSA Duo Air is a very slightly but mechanically identical Scubapro Air 2. The parts fully interchange and other than the shape of the buttons and minor styling changes on the case, they are identical.

Scubapro and Tabata have had this manufacturing arrangement at least as far back as the Scubapro MK 5 in the early 1970's so it is nothing new.

I read people getting all upset about a statement like this but this is normal practice with alot of products. I used to work for a PCB (Printed Circuit Board) Manufacturer and guess who "made" the circuit boards for Chrysler, Ford, Chevey, Gateway Computers, Compaq Computers and even INTEL processors? We did. Now we didn't get to sell a "brand" to the end user maket, however, for example INTEL came in, designed a product, worked with our engineers and basically Intel oversaw the production. All products were built per Intel's specifications and just like you said about Tabata, all QC was per Intel specs. This was the same process for everything we manufactured. They "went out the door" as a 100% Chrysler or Compaq or HP or Intel product BUT they were all manufactured in a large plant that was owned by someone else.

 

[Luis H]

If you don't mind piston regulators, ScubaPro makes great regulators, so does Atomic ... they're very similar and both attract a cult following, they have to in order to sell them at those prices with all the other equally good regulators that are out there.

My advise is to buy a regulator with an environmental kit from the top of a well known manufacturer's line. I'd find the Oceanic Delta IV or Mares Proton 42 or Ice Exteme to be great choices, or just find a used Cyclon 300 and fill the little rubber cup with good rum (I only use either the Nicaraguan Flor de Caña Especial or the Hatian Rhum Barbancourt Estate Reserve).

If you use a double hose regulator (as you know they are known to never freeze under any condition, with no special treatment) you can save the rum for better uses

 

[james croft]

If you use a double hose regulator (as you know they are known to never freeze under any condition, with no special treatment) you can save the rum for better uses

Words of widom. I think I've already figured out a good use for all the silcone we will save as well if everyone dove a double hose can.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

My cold water diving was in Maryland. I recall diving in one quarry that was 38 degrees, and had many dives that were at 40. We would take a little thermometer along. This was in the 1970's, using a regulator called a Healthways Scuba Star. We all had them, as they cost fifty bucks at a local department store. We never heard of regulator icing, and never had a problem, either. What characteristics makes this basic regulator, or any other "ice proof"?

I still have that regulator, and it works. I stopped using it regularly a couple of years back.

I have the US Divers version of the Scubastar - Healthways sold the same US Divers reg as the Scubastar.

Freeze ups with any all metal second stage were basically unheard of as all that brass transmitted boads of heat from the surrounding water to the colder parts of the poppet and prevented freezing. I never saw a second stage freeze until the arrival of plastic second stage cases came along (divers got screwed hard by the enitre industry when that change occurred and they still think the "lighter" plastic second stages are a good thing.)

The Scubastar first stage had nothing special in terms of freeze protection but it also did not have today's uber flow rates and the problems that result from the extra (and often excessive and uneeded flow rates offerred by some very high performance first stages. With a Scubastar if it fell out of your mouth the resulting freeflow probably would not freeze up the first stage. However on a modern high performance first and second stage, the free flow that results when it falls out of your mouth is much larger and can often create enough adibatic cooling to cause the first stage to freeze up (or for that matter the plastic second stage, which the sustained free flow then freezes up the first stage).

So in effect, the problem with many regulator freeze ups today is that the performance of the heat transfer and freeze protection systems has not always kept pace with the improvements in flow rates. And in the case of plastic cased second stages, the lack of heat transfer through the plastic case has aggravated the problem.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

DA, so if an atomic 1st stage had the environmentally sealing kit do you feel that it would meet the standard without freeflowing?

What are your thoughts on the atomic regs considering they come from former SP guys? What about thoughts on the sealed atomic 1st vs. Mk17 for ice diving?

My understanding is that Atomic did what SP should have done.

SP developed the silicone free TIS (Thermal Insulating System) to make their regs cold water capable after they stopped using environmental silicone and the SPEC (Silicone Protected Environmental Chamber) kits on their first stages. This occurred because packing ambient chambers with silicone is messy and with the advent of nitrox it became problematic as the initial response to nitrox was that it required 100% clean regulators - a belief that has finely fallen out of favor for nitrox mixes under 40%.

But at the time the continued use of environmental silicone posed problems in assembling a nitrox capable reg and posed the problem of cross contamination of tools and work bench area from silicone lubed regs to O2 clean regs (a problem that still exists for O2 clean regs designed for O2 use or for use with nitrox mixes over 40%).

So...Sp developed the TIS system which, while it has been effective on the lower performance Mk 2+ and medium performance Mk 16, has not been effective on the high performance Mk 25 in water colder than about 45 degrees. To it's great shame, SP's response has been to claim that water colder than 50 degrees constitutes "extreme" conditions and essentially ignored the problem - sad given that 20 years ago SP regs were the only ones many divers thought of using when they needed to dive in "extreme" conditions.

Atomic went the other direction and retained what amounted to a SPEC kit but used an O2 compatible filler such as Christo lube rather than silicone. It's more expensive
but it is O2 compatible and avoids cross contamination on the tools and workbench.

So...yes I'd use an Atomic reg as it shoudl offer the same excellent cold water perfomance as the older SPEC equipped SP regs. Until SP finally came out with the fully sealed MK 17, I continued to use SPEC equipped Mk 20's and these regs would also easily pass the 200lb lift bag at 100 ft test.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

It's just really interesting how one person will say that no, Scuba Pro isn't a good choice, it free flows, while another swears by Scuba Pro...//...So it must be, then, that other factors play into reg. free flow...//...With this dilemma, how do you truly know which reg. is going to work the best? You and your buddy could get the Best Product on the Market at the same time, at the same shop. Yours could be work just fine on the 10th dive, but all of a sudden you and your buddy have a free flowing situation to work with due to her reg. suddenly free flowing.

There is a difference in outcome that comes from one diver using good cold water technique (do a search, it's been covered frequently and in great detail) while another diver does not. But a good cold water reg should have enough margin to tolerate poor technique.

Many people think they know more than they do. They hear or know of a person using brand "A" who had a problem and then associate all models made by brand A as having those problems or characteristics. The following is a great example:

Personaly i dont think i would ever use a scubapro for ice diving. I've seen it done both good and bad. But 75% bad.. LOTS of freeflow

This statement means absolutley nothing without the details of what regs were used other than "Scubapro". Sure...I would NOT use a Mk 25 for extreme cold water diving as I have seen the Mk 25 freeze flow consitently on 4 out of 5 dives at 100 plus feet in 35 degree water. In those conditions, the TIS system is uses for freeze protection is just not adequate.

On the other hand, the ONLY reg from any manufacturer to survive cold water testing consiting of 200 minutes at high flow rates in 165 ft of 35 degree water without freeflowing was the Scubapro Mk 17. Consequently the Mk 17 is the only cold water reg I would want to be using in an overhead situation where it was also the only reg I had as my life would indeed depend on it and 99% effective in cold water would just not cut it.

Personally, I believe very little of what I read in an add or review and instead rely on the characteristics of the design and my own experience or the experience of people I dive with to make key decisions as to equipment. Expert opinion is fine, but you have to be sure you are getting the opinion of an expert rather than just an opinion of someone who views themselves as a self appointed expert and I always take it with a grain of salt and make sure it really makes sense before accepting it. And I would suggest everyone do the same.

 

[Stu S.]

Thanks, Mr. DA. Now I know. It was all easy, simple, and fun. Even today, I can't see any disadvantage of a metal second stage.

Stu

 

[DA Aquamaster]

If you don't mind piston regulators, ScubaPro makes great regulators, so does Atomic ... they're very similar and both attract a cult following, they have to in order to sell them at those prices with all the other equally good regulators that are out there.

My advise is to buy a regulator with an environmental kit from the top of a well known manufacturer's line.

What you say is sad but true for the most part.

Scubapro is associated almost exclusively with piston regulators due to their long history of making them. However they currently make what is in my opinion one of the best diaphragm regs ever made - the Mk 17.

Scubapro was slow to get into diaphragm regs and initially did so only to meet the market demand with the non SP designed Mk 14. They quickly followed up on this with their own much better Mk 16 design and then used this as a starting point of an evolutionary process that has led to the fully sealed, and extremely capable Mk 17. This is basically the same evolutionary approach that has led from the Mk 5 to the Mk 25 and I expect the Mk 17 will continue to contribute to future models in the same way.

Currently SP has an unbalanced piston, a balanced piston and a balanced diaphragm first stage design in production and all are well suited to specific roles. In additon over half their new first stage designs over the last decade have been diaphragm designs. This makes them one of the most diverse companies around in terms of design and available features. So it's incorrect to marginalize them by saying they are ok "if you don't mind piston regulators".

You are absolutely right however that AP and Atomic both charge far too much for their top end balanced piston designs. And Scubapro compounds the problem by continuing the push the MK 25 as their top end reg even though it is far less capable in extreme conditions than the Mk 17.

The good news however is that the Mk 17 is comparatively speaking a very good buy especially if you purchase it as a non standard package with the G250HP second stage.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Thanks, Mr. DA. Now I know. It was all easy, simple, and fun. Even today, I can't see any disadvantage of a metal second stage.

I still really like the old all metal Balanced Adjustable second stage. It breathes great, does not cause dry mouth and is bullet proof in cold water. I wish SP would bring them back although that is probbaly unlikely given the expense of producing a brass cased second stage.

I do not however miss the Harvey's High Tide high waist beaver tailed 1/4" wet suit I did my first ice dives in. "Brrr" does not fully capture an experience where not feeling your feet after a dive was normal. And then for reasons that still escape me, we would do a second dive. I much prefer the comfort of the dry suit I use today.

 

[Thalassamania]

The good news however is that the Mk 17 is comparatively speaking a very good buy especially if you purchase it as a non standard package with the G250HP second stage.

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind, but I fear I'll always have the gut feel that SPs are a "cult" piece.