I was wrong...

[lamont]

try to play nice, everyone, i'm packing for MX right now... =)

 

[ucfdiver]

You guys, who are friends of mine . . . honestly, you don't help our cause, and you don't help it at all by making fun of Bob, who was the person who drew me to DIR diving in the first place.

Hope I didn't come across as bashing Bob, I certainly didn't mean to. It was meant to poke back a little, but not to be taken at a personal level.

My recent distaste for UTD however, isn't. When GUE started, it began because there was a lack of quality instruction to supply the WKPP, not because JJ was thrown out of other organizations. There wasn't a once a month instructor training event. instructors who PUBLICLY discuss solo diving, CCR use, etc weren't sent invitations to cross over. They pushed virgin cave at 300ft deep every weekend using the system, and proved it. These guys weren't trying to get rich, in fact, they were all poor young guys recently out of college.

I'll admit, as someone who develops software for a living, I have an ethical issue with stealing someone's ideas, even if they're not something you can physically hold onto. When I see Nick attempt to pass side mount off as "DIR" on his website, it makes me cringe, especially since it's all about looks, and actually quite dangerous. When I talk to instructors who actively solo dive or use ccr (and post about it) who have received letters to crossover to UTD, it makes me wonder how "DIR" this organization really is. Plus, let's not forget taking brand new rebreathers to a deep cave so that we can plaster "exploration" on every forum...I never understood that, I thought you had to lay line to "explore", but whatever. Then there's Andrew's slap in the face to Jill Heinerth for getting bent there, when her dive was done almost 15 years ago based off of much less decompression research than he has today. If any regular diver would have taken a shiny new rebreather to a 300ft cave and went wild, we would have been called out! Then we have this z diving rig. Rather than stating that monkey diving is goofing off in 15ft of water, we build a rig and call it DIR. You can't focus on a team while doing loopties on a scooter, just accept that it's not 100% safe, but it's fun, so we consider it worth the risk....but no, we have classes for it and throw a fake label on it.

Now, admittedly, if the DIR badge was invented and marketed by Andrew himself, I'd have much less issue with it, but right now I see it as bastardizing what JJ has built for financial gain. I was really pro UTD at first, blackwood even quoted me on it. Unfortunately, I feel decieved. I thought breaking courses up into smaller, more manageable sizes was a good thing. But inviting everyone to teach, creating silly classes, pushing branded gear, etc has me feeling like I was a fool for falling for it.

 

[rjack321]

I thought breaking courses up into smaller, more manageable sizes was a good thing. But inviting everyone to teach, creating silly classes, pushing branded gear, etc has me feeling like I was a fool for falling for it.

Actually it just reinforces how its "all about the instructor". Agency doesn't mean squat. Yes even with GUE. At the time (~5yrs ago) my wife's DIRF class was absolutely pathetic, after hearing her course description I was embarassed for recommending it. GUE has a bunch of garbage (30/30 to 100ft anyone?), UTD has a bunch of garbage (scubatics? seriously?). Nobody's perfect, nobody is the keeper of all things DIR.

Just find an instructor doing cool stuff you want to do. Do a demo dive with them and go forth. The rest is just internet piss.

 

[Scott L]

try to play nice, everyone, i'm packing for MX right now... =)

Lamont, I tried my best to corral the youngsters but their will was too strong and it was, well, just a giddy slow Friday. Have fun in Mexico. Stay away from the cartels...

 

[nadwidny]

nobody is the keeper of all things DIR.

George is and always will be the final word on DIR. He must be since he said so himself.

Lamont, I tried my best to corral the youngsters but their will was too strong

Hopefully I'm included in that group. It's been a long time since anyone considered me a youngster.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Hope I didn't come across as bashing Bob, I certainly didn't mean to. It was meant to poke back a little, but not to be taken at a personal level.

For the record I haven't taken anything you said to me personally ... we look at things from very different perspectives based on age, geographic, experience and regional differences.

Fact is, if we were able to sit down and share a few stories over a beer someday, I'd look forward to it.

I make no bones about the fact that I don't consider myself DIR. I do, however, believe that the program benefits a great many people ... whether or not they stay with it as their diving evolves through experience and goal development. I don't actively "push" my students toward DIR ... but I do encourage those I think will benefit from it in that direction. And an awful lot of them end up going in that direction once they've been exposed to the advantages that the skills, equipment and mindset have to offer.

We're fortunate in my area to have some talented instructors and mentors ... UTD, GUE and others who have helped a lot of local folks become better divers. Many of our local NAUI, PADI, and SDI/TDI instructors have taken and incorporated DIR practices into their teaching. And several encourage their students to take a closer look at what the DIR agencies have to offer. They've had some obstacles to overcome along the way, though ... due to the actions of a few of the "faithful".

Back about 7 or 8 years ago there was a group of young men here that had at the time been newly DIRFed ... ironically, by Andrew. They had an aggravating habit of showing up on the week-ends at our local mudhole and congregating out on the seawall, where they'd snicker and poke fun at all the divers and students getting into the water with their snorkels and split fins. I don't know if they were aware of it or not, but they became known as "The Posse" by the local dive community ... and they left a stench in their wake ... folks tended to associate them with the entire DIR program, and it created a lot of animosity among the local dive community. Fortunately, over the years most of them quit diving and went off to become "the best" at some other recreational activity ... and the one I know who's still actively diving eventually grew up. But it took several years and a lot of effort from people like Lynne, Laura, Lamont and others ... including our local UTD instructors ... to develop a trust relationship between the DIR community and the rest of the dive community. You can call it kumbaya if you like ... I think it just boils down to why people get into diving in the first place, which is to have fun. Most of us don't see politics and divisiveness as fun ... and dive politics is worse than the other kind, because it's so easily avoidable.

Which leads me back to this thread ... and why you don't see the participation on this forum that you used to. All this back and forth about who's doing what doesn't really do anything for the community ... all it does is make the snickerers feel good about themselves. Pretty much it makes you look like arrogant fools to everybody else. For the DIR-curious who come here, it tends to put them off ... and for the DIR divers who might otherwise post here, mostly they just don't want their name associated with yours. So they post elsewhere.

About GI3 ... yeah, he did draw a lot of people to DIR. He also put a lot of people off to DIR. His behavior was so over-the-top that it created a stereotype that has, frankly, inhibited the program. And those he attracted are the sort who'd have been attracted anyway. So I have to question whether the contributions he made to DIR were worth the PR headaches he created ... frankly, I think JJ would've done better without him.

GI3 isn't who's going to keep DIR alive and healthy in your local community. He's irrelevent ... I'm not sure he even dives anymore. What's going to bring the DIR-curious to take a closer look ... to decide to learn more ... and to eventually write those trip reports Brian was talking about ... will be the behavior of the DIR divers they see at the dive sites.

And frankly, they won't care whose initials are on those diver's C-card ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Scott L]

Nice post Bob! And a very accurate historical perspective based upon everything I have read of the past. I would be willing to bet the ranch that our fine younger fellows from from Central Florida will never fall anywhere close to the arrogance referenced in your post.

In fact, their level-headed, mature and entertaining contributions to the DIR forum and SB in general should be noted. They already know that they have an open invitation to camp out in my house whenever they visit the area diving, as do you...

 

[danvolker]

For the record I haven't taken anything you said to me personally ... we look at things from very different perspectives based on age, geographic, experience and regional differences.

Fact is, if we were able to sit down and share a few stories over a beer someday, I'd look forward to it.

I make no bones about the fact that I don't consider myself DIR. I do, however, believe that the program benefits a great many people ... whether or not they stay with it as their diving evolves through experience and goal development. I don't actively "push" my students toward DIR ... but I do encourage those I think will benefit from it in that direction. And an awful lot of them end up going in that direction once they've been exposed to the advantages that the skills, equipment and mindset have to offer.

We're fortunate in my area to have some talented instructors and mentors ... UTD, GUE and others who have helped a lot of local folks become better divers. Many of our local NAUI, PADI, and SDI/TDI instructors have taken and incorporated DIR practices into their teaching. And several encourage their students to take a closer look at what the DIR agencies have to offer. They've had some obstacles to overcome along the way, though ... due to the actions of a few of the "faithful".

Back about 7 or 8 years ago there was a group of young men here that had at the time been newly DIRFed ... ironically, by Andrew. They had an aggravating habit of showing up on the week-ends at our local mudhole and congregating out on the seawall, where they'd snicker and poke fun at all the divers and students getting into the water with their snorkels and split fins. I don't know if they were aware of it or not, but they became known as "The Posse" by the local dive community ... and they left a stench in their wake ... folks tended to associate them with the entire DIR program, and it created a lot of animosity among the local dive community. Fortunately, over the years most of them quit diving and went off to become "the best" at some other recreational activity ... and the one I know who's still actively diving eventually grew up. But it took several years and a lot of effort from people like Lynne, Laura, Lamont and others ... including our local UTD instructors ... to develop a trust relationship between the DIR community and the rest of the dive community. You can call it kumbaya if you like ... I think it just boils down to why people get into diving in the first place, which is to have fun. Most of us don't see politics and divisiveness as fun ... and dive politics is worse than the other kind, because it's so easily avoidable.

Which leads me back to this thread ... and why you don't see the participation on this forum that you used to. All this back and forth about who's doing what doesn't really do anything for the community ... all it does is make the snickerers feel good about themselves. Pretty much it makes you look like arrogant fools to everybody else. For the DIR-curious who come here, it tends to put them off ... and for the DIR divers who might otherwise post here, mostly they just don't want their name associated with yours. So they post elsewhere.

About GI3 ... yeah, he did draw a lot of people to DIR. He also put a lot of people off to DIR. His behavior was so over-the-top that it created a stereotype that has, frankly, inhibited the program. And those he attracted are the sort who'd have been attracted anyway. So I have to question whether the contributions he made to DIR were worth the PR headaches he created ... frankly, I think JJ would've done better without him.

GI3 isn't who's going to keep DIR alive and healthy in your local community. He's irrelevent ... I'm not sure he even dives anymore. What's going to bring the DIR-curious to take a closer look ... to decide to learn more ... and to eventually write those trip reports Brian was talking about ... will be the behavior of the DIR divers they see at the dive sites.

And frankly, they won't care whose initials are on those diver's C-card ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Bob,
What everyone needs to remember, is that George did not set out to train the world, or even to have any part of GUE. In the mid-90's, when north Florida cave divers were dropping like flies, and we had a huge explosion of 90 day wonder tech instructors showing up in South Florida, getting anyone with a dollar into deep diving....there was this huge problem of how to stop this....it was funded--ad revenues and profits from real agencies, and everything appeared as though it would keep getting worse.....
When George began pushing the DIR ideas on the Tech list and cavers, and as I began pushing this on rec.scuba, we were trying to fight big money and dangerous behavior, with no money.
The idea then was to get people to learn enough about what they ought to be thinking about...and we had to cut through all the ad based noise....George used a WWF Wrestling personna to accomplish this, and I have never seen any alternative where this much was accomplished, in as little time, with no ad budget.

George was not like the personna in person...this was how the Internet would begin the DIR revolution.....When divers all over the world began asking for training in WKPP style diving, JJ ended up creating GUE, and George was never in that picture...Today, Jarrod is doing a great job, it is a kinder, gentler kind of a DIR message.....but without George, there would still be only a few hundred people in the world that ever dived like the WKPP ( and there would be no cool name like DIR )

Regards,
DanV

 

[rjack321]

George is and always will be the final word on DIR. He must be since he said so himself.

Good point. I wish the gavinscooter list was more active though, its often more entertaining than this place.

 

[LiteHedded]

Nice post Bob! And a very accurate historical perspective based upon everything I have read of the past. I would be willing to bet the ranch that our fine younger fellows from from Central Florida will never fall anywhere close to the arrogance referenced in your post.

In fact, their level-headed, mature and entertaining contributions to the DIR forum and SB in general should be noted. They already know that they have an open invitation to camp out in my house whenever they visit the area diving, as do you...

Aw thanks buddy