Glad to see that I am not the only one with a major problem with question # 5 
I need your help! Survey on women/gender in diving.
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drrich2
Contributor
I suspect who people do, or don't, make much eye contact with is often decided unconsciously. A range of reasons could be in play, not all of which involve 'disrespecting' women. For example, men are sometimes seen as hierarchical, placing a lot of value on perceived respect (e.g.; firm hand shake while looking someone in the eye), and more prone to physical aggression. It's quite possible a man might, for largely unconscious reasons he doesn't understand himself, perceive other men as more likely to need the subtle confrontation of direct eye contact. In other works, a man facing other men might feel the need to establish mutual respect in a direct way, and he may have been subtly conditioned to do this from boyhood. It can be a way of asserting one's self (e.g.: the firm hand shake), to avoid seeming weak and a target of mistreatment (subtle letting other boys know I'm not a wimp/bullying target).
If that man is speaking to a woman, that subtle rivalry, sense of potential threat and need to assert one's presence/power might not be present.
It may not mean he thinks women are inferior, don't rate consideration, are probably with & under the leadership of one of the guys, etc...
But how many people are that consciously self-aware of their own internal motives in snap decision situations like giving a dive briefing?
Richard.
P.S.: Some people prefer to avoid eye contact. I usually do; I can focus on what I'm thinking better if I'm not trying to read the other person's face, or 'put on an expressive show' because I know that person is reading me. I'm more likely to make eye contact when angry or dealing with a potential threat.
If that man is speaking to a woman, that subtle rivalry, sense of potential threat and need to assert one's presence/power might not be present.
It may not mean he thinks women are inferior, don't rate consideration, are probably with & under the leadership of one of the guys, etc...
But how many people are that consciously self-aware of their own internal motives in snap decision situations like giving a dive briefing?
Richard.
P.S.: Some people prefer to avoid eye contact. I usually do; I can focus on what I'm thinking better if I'm not trying to read the other person's face, or 'put on an expressive show' because I know that person is reading me. I'm more likely to make eye contact when angry or dealing with a potential threat.
dreamdive
Contributor
I find it quite amazing how many men are responding to a FEMALE oriented survey and are posting here! I had no idea you guys are so interested.
If I may make a suggestion, replace sexism with machoism. This way both genders feel included. God only knows that there are plenty of macho/ego maniacs on the boats. That would have made it easier for me to answer your questions. Now I will say (to preclude any men from complaining) that women are not immune to being Macho or having big egos - but like everything else in this sport....we are in the minority.
If I may make a suggestion, replace sexism with machoism. This way both genders feel included. God only knows that there are plenty of macho/ego maniacs on the boats. That would have made it easier for me to answer your questions. Now I will say (to preclude any men from complaining) that women are not immune to being Macho or having big egos - but like everything else in this sport....we are in the minority.
My mother tongue is not English but I have a small problem in understanding your quoted sentence:
For me, sexism can be attributed to both sexes, while machism - machoism as you call it - relates to men's behavior.
So please help me understand why replacing sexism by machoism would solve the problem and make both gender feel included? Thank you.
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Well, the thread was in Basic, not in Women's Perspectives.
And the survey starts with a question about which gender the responder mostly identifies with.
And there are quite a few men who are concerned about sexism. Both ways, BTW, even if discrimination of women is more widespread than discrimination of men, so it should raise a bigger concern.
And there's no indication in the OP that men should be discouraged from replying to the survey.
I really don't see that this in any way should disqualify us who have an Y chromosome and a "male" mind from contributing to the thread.
Personally, I quit the survey around Q5, since I found the questions poorly stated and impossible to answer, but that's quite another discussion.
This subject is really interesting to me, as I am a (female) firefighter, and have been for nearly 20 years. When I got hired, I honestly did not realize the tiny percentage of women in the fire service, and did not begin my career in order to be a "role model". It just seemed to be an interesting, challenging, and adventurous job where I could make a difference in my community.
I am actually quite surprised to read your survey and many of the responses, and never considered that there would be similarities in the world of diving. But some of the points raised are all-too-similar to some of the things I have experienced in my firefighting career. (The lack of eye contact, the assumption that the men are stronger and more capable, the feeling of being an outsider).
I try not to blame it all on "sexism", and try to just do my best and not be overly sensitive. Sometimes it is just a matter of people being uncomfortable with a woman showing up in their formerly all-male environment and not knowing whether to be an equal or a "gentleman".
It will be interesting to look at dive ads, etc with this in mind.
I am actually quite surprised to read your survey and many of the responses, and never considered that there would be similarities in the world of diving. But some of the points raised are all-too-similar to some of the things I have experienced in my firefighting career. (The lack of eye contact, the assumption that the men are stronger and more capable, the feeling of being an outsider).
I try not to blame it all on "sexism", and try to just do my best and not be overly sensitive. Sometimes it is just a matter of people being uncomfortable with a woman showing up in their formerly all-male environment and not knowing whether to be an equal or a "gentleman".
It will be interesting to look at dive ads, etc with this in mind.
well phrased Bethie..........
What rubs me the wrong way about the survey and the course the OP is taking is that sexism is taken to be a "default". In Canada (where the OP comes from) this is still taught as the defacto norm in gender relations at the university level. It has been since the days of the rabid anti-male feminism of the 1980's. There is a lot of push-back in Canadian feminism right now against the assumption that "women must win" in order for "things to be equal" but this is a recent development. In academia they are following the curve and in a lot of ways behind the curve.
The question asks, "is there more" or "is there less" feminism but the assumption is that sexism is always there to one degree or another..... the question behind the question is, "is it bad, or is it REALLY bad"...... there is no option for "it isn't bad".
If I were to ascribe to this world view then I could never view a female colleague or a female student as "just another diver". I do not believe that this is the case and I do not believe that it is fair. The general society has moved along since 1980 but the course the OP is taking has not. Asking loaded questions isn't "research" and alas a man (me, in this case) must point that out, which will automatically make my opinion irrelevant according to the OP's professors.
That's what is going on here.
R..
The question asks, "is there more" or "is there less" feminism but the assumption is that sexism is always there to one degree or another..... the question behind the question is, "is it bad, or is it REALLY bad"...... there is no option for "it isn't bad".
If I were to ascribe to this world view then I could never view a female colleague or a female student as "just another diver". I do not believe that this is the case and I do not believe that it is fair. The general society has moved along since 1980 but the course the OP is taking has not. Asking loaded questions isn't "research" and alas a man (me, in this case) must point that out, which will automatically make my opinion irrelevant according to the OP's professors.
That's what is going on here.
R..
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Being a hetero cis male, I have to admit that my monkey brain is guilty of having slightly erotically colored views of some of the women I've encountered, both in my professional and in my private life. I do, however, try my best to not let my monkey brain affect the way I interact with those women.
Being a middle-aged man, I have to admit that my upbringing in a less gender-equal society has lead to me occasionally directing my attendance more towards the male part of my audience than the female part of my audience. I do, however, try my best to fight that prejudice and behave properly.
Being a diver with both male and female clubmates and fellow divers, I sincerely believe that I don't make any connections between proficiency and self-sufficiency, and gender. I do, however, recognize that my monkey brain and my less-than-optimally gender-equal upbringing may lead to behavior that some women may consider sexist. I sincerely apologize if that happens (no snark or sarcasm intended), and I encourage any women interpreting me that way to (figuratively) kick my butt if that should happen.
My point is that even those of us who sincerely oppose sexism may, due to our biology and/or upbringing, make the occasional gaffe. Please bear with us. We're trying our best, and if you feel offended it's not necessarily due to ill will on our side. And tell us if we screw up, OK?
Being a middle-aged man, I have to admit that my upbringing in a less gender-equal society has lead to me occasionally directing my attendance more towards the male part of my audience than the female part of my audience. I do, however, try my best to fight that prejudice and behave properly.
Being a diver with both male and female clubmates and fellow divers, I sincerely believe that I don't make any connections between proficiency and self-sufficiency, and gender. I do, however, recognize that my monkey brain and my less-than-optimally gender-equal upbringing may lead to behavior that some women may consider sexist. I sincerely apologize if that happens (no snark or sarcasm intended), and I encourage any women interpreting me that way to (figuratively) kick my butt if that should happen.
My point is that even those of us who sincerely oppose sexism may, due to our biology and/or upbringing, make the occasional gaffe. Please bear with us. We're trying our best, and if you feel offended it's not necessarily due to ill will on our side. And tell us if we screw up, OK?
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