I like guns.

[Insta-Gator]

:shocked2: Are you saying the NSA could 'push' content on your computer and then convict you for having it? Say it ain't so, Joe.

 

[adurso]

What are you referring to in regard to an FFL? An FFL is only a federal required for the transfer of firearms from state to state. There are plenty of states in the US where two residents of the same state can meet in a parking lot and sell as many guns as they want to each other with no reciepts no paperwork, no nothing.

Up until July of 2013, I could have sold another Colorado resident as many firearms and as much ammo as I wanted with nothing but a handshake and a passing of cash between us as long as I was under the belief the buyer was a legitimate law abiding Colorado state citizen.

This changed in July, but we've already tossed out 2 of the democrats from office with a recall effort and are working on the 3rd and hopefully by next year the restrictive legislation that now requires a background check for a private firearm sale will be over turned.

BATF sez: "The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), Title 18, United States
Code (U.S.C.), section 923(a), provides, in part, that no person shall engage
in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms until he
has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney
General. A “firearm” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) to include any weapon
(including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted
to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and the frame or receiver
of any such weapon. The term “manufacturer” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10)
as any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for
purposes of sale or distribution. As applied to a manufacturer of firearms,
the term “engaged in the business” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(A) and 27
CFR 478.11, as a “person who devotes time, attention, and labor to
manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the
principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution
of the firearms manufactured.” The term “dealer” is defined by 18 U.S.C.
921(a)(11)(B) and 27 CFR 478.11 to include “any person engaged in the business
of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or
trigger mechanisms to firearms …” (i.e., a gunsmith). As applied to a
gunsmith, the term “engaged in the business” is defined by 18 U.S.C.
921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11 as a “person who devotes time, attention, and
labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business
with the principal objective of livelihood and profit …”


Note the vagueness of two important terms: "dealer" and "engaged in the business"; the key part being ....principal objective of livelihood and profit....

This is subjective, and supersedes state law.

There are several cases going on now involving people who purchased firearms as gifts and were charged as Strawmen.

An agency that once declared a shoestring a machine gun under NFA rules is very subjective.

The agency allowed a type of drop in auto sear to be sold without the NFA stamp, then suddenly changed it's mind, and rounded up all of the purchasers (figuratively) and confiscated the sears.

Arbitrary at times, it seems.

 

[Mike]

Technically you might be right, but I think the point everyone is trying to make is, regardless of what is legal and not legal, if you do what you describe and they know, your ass is going to sit in jail while they show pictures of "as many firearms and as much ammo as you want"and talk about how there was a terrorist plot that you and the other Colorado resident were cooking up, and if enough people come forward with evidence saying the fed is full of ****, suddenly all your computers that they would have already seized will be loaded with child porn.

There is no 'technically' to it. It's called the US constitution and the 2nd amendment.

People buy and sell guns and ammo every single day in this country from each other LEGALLY. You seem to believe they are getting away with something?

BATF sez: "The Gun Control Act of 1968 (GCA), Title 18, United States
Code (U.S.C.), section 923(a), provides, in part, that no person shall engage
in the business of importing, manufacturing, or dealing in firearms until he
has filed an application with and received a license to do so from the Attorney
General. A “firearm” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(3) to include any weapon
(including a starter gun) which will or is designed to or may readily be converted
to expel a projectile by the action of an explosive, and the frame or receiver
of any such weapon. The term “manufacturer” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(10)
as any person engaged in the business of manufacturing firearms or ammunition for
purposes of sale or distribution. As applied to a manufacturer of firearms,
the term “engaged in the business” is defined by 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(A) and 27
CFR 478.11, as a “person who devotes time, attention, and labor to
manufacturing firearms as a regular course of trade or business with the
principal objective of livelihood and profit through the sale or distribution
of the firearms manufactured.” The term “dealer” is defined by 18 U.S.C.
921(a)(11)(B) and 27 CFR 478.11 to include “any person engaged in the business
of repairing firearms or of making or fitting special barrels, stocks, or
trigger mechanisms to firearms …” (i.e., a gunsmith). As applied to a
gunsmith, the term “engaged in the business” is defined by 18 U.S.C.
921(a)(21)(D) and 27 CFR 478.11 as a “person who devotes time, attention, and
labor to engaging in such activity as a regular course of trade or business
with the principal objective of livelihood and profit …”


Note the vagueness of two important terms: "dealer" and "engaged in the business"; the key part being ....principal objective of livelihood and profit....

This is subjective, and supersedes state law.

There are several cases going on now involving people who purchased firearms as gifts and were charged as Strawmen.

An agency that once declared a shoestring a machine gun under NFA rules is very subjective.

The agency allowed a type of drop in auto sear to be sold without the NFA stamp, then suddenly changed it's mind, and rounded up all of the purchasers (figuratively) and confiscated the sears.

Arbitrary at times, it seems.

You're mixing up a bit of things. The key to what you're getting on about in exactly what you quoted. Individual citizens selling their personal firearms and ammo are not -

importer
manufacturers
dealers

As far as strawman purchases, that's another scenario also. If you purchase through a FFL and fill out a form 4473, one of the questions you must answer is if the firearm is for yourself or not. It's very cut and dry. Even without going through a FFL it is a felony to purchase a firearm for someone else knowingly that they aren't legally able to purchase one themselves.

So I don't know what your point is in all this. As long as I or someone else isn't a dealer, importer or manufacturer as defined 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(A) and 27
CFR 478.11, you are free to sell firearms and ammo as much as you want as long as you follow the federal regulations and state regulations where you reside.

Have you never been to a gun show and walked by 400 tables of citizens who paid $100 to rent a table to sell guns and ammo? Few to none of them are licensed, importers, manufacturers or dealers, they are private citizens, and none of them are breaking any federal or state laws.

---------- Post added October 27th, 2013 at 08:50 AM ----------

Here is one I did not sell. I think it's a wretched excuse for a sidearm, but anybody know why I hung on to it?

It's an M9, some people see value in certain dates of manufacture or built in Italy or the US when it comes to Beretta 92s, I suspect it's as simple as date of manufacture or something as small as because of the guide rod being metal instead of plastic or is there something deeper to it?

 

[Insta-Gator]

Maybe in a place far from home it gave your comfort and/or protection when you needed it?

---------- Post added October 27th, 2013 at 12:19 PM ----------

So, if you purchase a firearm for yourself (and stipulated so on the form) how long must you retain possession before you are able to transfer it to another person, by sale or gift?

---------- Post added October 27th, 2013 at 12:21 PM ----------

What if all the paperwork says I 'own' the firearm but decide to allow my wife or another to 'use' the firearm?

 

[adurso]

There is no 'technically' to it. It's called the US constitution and the 2nd amendment.

People buy and sell guns and ammo every single day in this country from each other LEGALLY. You seem to believe they are getting away with something?








You're mixing up a bit of things. The key to what you're getting on about in exactly what you quoted. Individual citizens selling their personal firearms and ammo are not -

importer
manufacturers
dealers

As far as strawman purchases, that's another scenario also. If you purchase through a FFL and fill out a form 4473, one of the questions you must answer is if the firearm is for yourself or not. It's very cut and dry. Even without going through a FFL it is a felony to purchase a firearm for someone else knowingly that they aren't legally able to purchase one themselves.

So I don't know what your point is in all this. As long as I or someone else isn't a dealer, importer or manufacturer as defined 18 U.S.C. 921(a)(21)(A) and 27
CFR 478.11, you are free to sell firearms and ammo as much as you want as long as you follow the federal regulations and state regulations where you reside.

Have you never been to a gun show and walked by 400 tables of citizens who paid $100 to rent a table to sell guns and ammo? Few to none of them are licensed, importers, manufacturers or dealers, they are private citizens, and none of them are breaking any federal or state laws.

---------- Post added October 27th, 2013 at 08:50 AM ----------



It's an M9, some people see value in certain dates of manufacture or built in Italy or the US when it comes to Beretta 92s, I suspect it's as simple as date of manufacture or something as small as because of the guide rod being metal instead of plastic or is there something deeper to it?

My point is very simple: there is an arbitrary point where someone buying selling guns becomes a "dealer" by Federal code.

At that point, sans type 1 FFL, BATF comes into the person's life.

Once the man is in your life, he is there for good.

Being that I was one of the guys that came into people's lives I can make definitive statements about it.

This discussion was for informational purposes only, people do things every day which violate bunches of statutes, local, State, and Federal, some willingly, others accidentally, and only a small fraction of them are ever caught at it.

You, specifically, are free to do as you like

 

[BRT]

My point is very simple: there is an arbitrary point where someone buying selling guns becomes a "dealer" by Federal code.

At that point, sans type 1 FFL, BATF comes into the person's life.

Once the man is in your life, he is there for good.

Being that I was one of the guys that came into people's lives I can make definitive statements about it.

This discussion was for informational purposes only, people do things every day which violate bunches of statutes, local, State, and Federal, some willingly, others accidentally, and only a small fraction of them are ever caught at it.

You, specifically, are free to do as you like

Still nothing there about federal rules on selling ammo?

 

[Insta-Gator]

Still nothing there about federal rules on selling ammo?

I think the arbitrary nature of what "the man" decides to do today is the entire point. If Mr. BATF is fighting with his wife or is having other personal issues, he might decide that today is your turn in the barrel. Once you are in the barrel, you're in the barrel.

 

[Doc]

---------- Post added October 27th, 2013 at 08:50 AM ----------



Close enough to give you the point. You are now in the lead!

It's an M9, some people see value in certain dates of manufacture or built in Italy or the US when it comes to Beretta 92s, I suspect it's as simple as date of manufacture or something as small as because of the guide rod being metal instead of plastic or is there something deeper to it?

It was one of those actual milspec M9's that were built in Italy, imported here, and then rejected by US Military inspectors because of the origin issue. A very few of them were sold to Easy coast police agencies and then sold off to the Civilian market after the cops came to their senses.

These so-called "BERØ" M9's are the closest thing to a USGI M9 (not being confused with a Beretta "commemorative" version) that are available to civilians. And yes, no matter how ridiculous of a gun, it is the current issue sidearm and there is a substantial bump in value for these orphans.

Those other two S&W Revolvers are not "stolen" as was the idea thrown out above. They have a similar ridiculous military history but in their case... they were withdrawn from service as the G had no use for three-fingered pilots! (That is a hint!)

 

[Insta-Gator]

Might be staged, might be real. In any case, DON'T DO THIS!!

http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=899_1382687113

 

[Green_Manelishi]

Might be staged, might be real. In any case, DON'T DO THIS!!

LiveLeak.com - I say dumbest man on earth

Notice he "pulls" even though there is no recoil from the round that allegedly hang-fires?