I do not agree with, "Dive and Let Dive."

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tursiops

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You hear "Dive and Let Dive" (or something similar) on ScubaBoard a lot; it is often used to try and close out a bicker-fest where it means something like, "You Do You and I'll Do Me." But it also means "You can dive any way you want and I won't care or say anything." I do not agree with these connotations, and thus disagree with the basic D&LD statement.

As a diving community, we do NOT want people diving dangerously, or in a way that is harmful to the environment. That kind of diving is NOT acceptable! Sure, the diver who is choosing to dive (for example) solo (ADDED LATER FOR CLARITY: but is un trained and/or unequipped for it), or in a buddy pair but refusing to have an alternate 2nd stage, or not mindful of NDLs or their SPG, or deeper than their MOD.... that diver MAY be endangering just themselves, but it might also be endangering their buddy, or those around them should they have (for example) an OOA issue. The diving photographer who "just wants decent picture of the seahorse" but is willing to damage a gorgonian to do it...that is not acceptable. Even the lone diver who goes off solo and kills himself...that reflects back on the community, the regulations about where and how we dive, insurance costs, etc.

In the world of conflict resolution, there are three main modes of response to a conflict (as might be caused by seeing someone, for example, tickling a pufferfish to see it blow up): aggressive, analytical, and withdrawal. We each tend to one of those behaviors, but if that behavior does not resolve the conflict, then we tend to go to our second-choice mode, and then finally our last choice mode. Our internal goal when choosing these behaviors and in moving between them is (primary mode) salvaging the issue and the ego of both parties; then dropping back to salvaging the issue and just our ego, and then finally salvaging just our own ego.

An example of example of this sequence is seeing that photographer destroying the environment to get the picture. The assertive response might be to swim over and move the diver away from the gorgonian, while waggling your finger at them with the No-No sign; they respond aggressively (because now they are in conflict too and that is their primary mode too!); you shift to the analytical/provide-information mode and point to their fins and the gorgonians; they stay aggressive (because it is working for them) and give you the finger; you shift to withdrawal, mumble "Dive and Let Dive" into your reg and swim away. Not your problem anymore. Really?

How can we do better? Do we need a handsign (not the finger) for "You are destroying the environment"? The easy answer is, it's not my job; the DM on the boat is getting paid to protect the environment. But, in reality, they WON"T be paid (with a tip) if they call out any divers for unacceptable behavior.

Why is this not everybody's job?

Many of you will attack me and this post for being a busybody and interfering in their "God-given and Constitutionally-guaranteed" right to freedom to do whatever they want. Damn straight I am. Suck it up, get over it, and tell me why D&LD is the right answer to dangerous/damaging diving.
 

formernuke

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Dive and let dive doesn't reference doing dangerous or harmful stuff. It's more about preference staying within safety.

Dive and let Dive refers to fin choices, wetsuit preference, computer options etc. Things that are within the established safety standards without harming the environment.
 
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tursiops

tursiops

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.
 

BoundForElsewhere

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I'm with you and regularly admonish people both under the water and on the boat for bone-head moves. I try to do it nicely but, as a New Yorker, I sometimes flip to the aggressive mode and use my dad voice.

These types of scenarios were actually part of my professional training unbeknownst to me. My instructor set me up as the rear guide on a night dive and brought his friends to do stupid **** like stand on the reef (they faked it for my and the reef's benefit) and wander off trying to get the perfect photo. It is true, what is the balance between maintaining dive protocol and nature conservation and the business aspect of the industry? I don't know but all I can say is don't touch the coral, don't mess with the fishies, and don't put me or others in danger. You do any of that and my New Yorker is coming out.
 
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tursiops

tursiops

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Dive and let dive doesn't reference doing dangerous or harmful stuff. It's more about preference staying within safety.

Dive and let Dive refers to fin choices, wetsuit preference, computer options etc. Things that are within the established safety standards without harming the environment.
Humpty-Dumpty: “When I use a word… it means just what I choose it to mean – neither more nor less.”
 

NW Dive Dawg

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As long as you are not harming the environment, infringing on others rights, or placing ANYONE else in harms way (including potential rescuers) as a result of your actions.......then I say Dive and Let Dive.
 

Skeptic14

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Yeah... good intentioned or not, your post does come off as if your a busybody that knows better and has some unknown authority to keep people in line, how you see it of course.

I guess it comes down to different personalities and personal philosophies as far as how much a person should interfere/intervene when a complete stranger is doing something they disapprove of and how willing a person is to seek conflict.

I think if it's from a place of purely good intentions there are ways to gauge if the individual doing whatever in whatever activity (doesn't have to be scuba) would be open for a good natured suggestion vs admonishment from some random person. And there are probably times that wouldn't be the case, I've seen my share of a-holes in all sorts of endeavors that it isn't worth engaging; but that's my personality and choice.

To me, too often this type of thing when I've witnessed it isn't coming entirely from a good natured place; there are often tinges of smugness, self-righteousness, perceived authority etc. And yeh... we're all humans... being corrected in a sub-optimal manner by a complete stranger with no authority to correct you... ha, of course that isn't going to usually be met well, why would it?

Worry about and control what is in your control; yourself, your dive group, the divers you associate with etc. For most except the true a-holes, being a good humble example is probably better than coming off as a busybody know-it-all.
 

KatieMac

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I'm with you and regularly admonish people both under the water and on the boat for bone-head moves.
As a DM, you get to. Me ... not so much. I have told dive shops that I won't dive with certain people again because they are dangerous.
 

Marie13

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Dive and let dive - applies to a certain organization’s evangelizing. Aka “you’re a crappy diver if you don’t dive the way we do and take our classes.” I’ve seen that posted a number of times. The blunt response I’d like to make would get me banned.
 

Outbound

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As several others have stated, I usually take it to mean the nicest form of response to the sanctimonious types who love to spend time telling others how to rig their gear, what type of gear to use, etc., rather than just shut-up, get their kit on, and get in the damn water.

However, you bring up a good point, especially as it pertains to environmental and safety issues. Like most divers, I've seen my share of both. One guy I know routinely, if inadvertently, tramples coral when trying to get his perfect GoPro footage. After telling him several times that he needs to be more careful with his buoyancy, trim, and general proprioception, I now just push him out of the way when he does it. However, I have a pretty good relationship with him. I don't think I'd do that with a stranger I just met on a boat.

As for safety, my "Dive and let dive" response only kicks in after I've warned said person and they still refuse to listen. For example, on one week-long dive trip I was buddied in a three-man where one guy constantly went off and did his own thing, more or less ignoring us. And he was not a very competent diver: air hog, bad buoyancy, probably horrible navigation skills, and certainly a general lack of awareness of his surroundings. Topside after the first dive I nicely suggested that he stick closer to us. He said okay. Next dive: exactly the same thing. I again reminded him that if he got into trouble he was usually too far away from us for his two buddies to be of much help. Again, same type of diving. Since this wasn't a person I knew or had an existing friendship with, I just said screw it. I could either ruin my dive trip chasing this yahoo around in case he got into trouble, or I could just dive with my other buddy and hope that the yahoo kept up. I chose the latter.

Now, I might be a giant a-hole for doing that, but in the end I feel I have no responsibility to go out of my way to assist idiots. I dive for enjoyment and recreation, not to be a babysitter. That doesn't mean I'm going to casually let someone drown. But it does mean I'm not going to ruin my experience because someone else is too stubborn or selfish to accept that their actions and behavior might be impinging on someone else's enjoyment.

I'll give you one or two nice warnings. The third time will be an "I told you so."
 
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