How would you handle this?

[Dr. Lecter]

Dr Lector, is there any hunting that you support? or is it a general disdain for hunting in general. IM only asking to understand your perspective. IS fishing ok?

If you'd read the thread, you'd have seen that I said I grew up hunting (boar, whitetail, and the occasional grey squirrel or rabbit if I was out with the .22 and felt like stew or pot pie) and I still do a little spearfishing now and then with a pole spear. I'd do more except that I don't even like fish all that much... though I do enjoy the stalk. I have nothing against hunting, spearfishing, or diving for bugs. I won't hunt octos because I don't find them that tasty and, more importantly to me, I generally prefer not to eat the more interesting megafauna. Similarly, even if sea turtles were legal to hunt out here, I wouldn't.

All that said, I accept that there are people out there who find very tasty the animals I like enough not to hunt them, whether that's tako divers here in HI, snapping turtle eaters back in the SE US, or the whole slew of people on this planet who like dog BBQed more than sleeping at the foot of the bed. And so long as they're doing what they do in a respectful, or at least generally civilized, way, I'll leave them well enough alone.

That was not the case here. In this instance, a guy who gets off on filming his punting of porcupines, airbag blasting of chickens, firecracker stuffing of snakes, and general spoiled frat boy type antics with guns and booze came onto everyone's radar when he took a relatively rare and very popular animal from an area where it was well known as an attraction for divers to look at. And true to the sort of form he's put out there on (now private, but previously public) social media, when told it was uncool his response was " you, I'll do what I want and since it pisses you off, I'm gonna come back and do it again!" (Paraphrased, obviously).

You do that, and you deserve all that (legally) happens to you because of it. Killing an octo? BFD. Being a sleazy piece of barely human trash with zero regard for others or the natural world? Yeah, I'll be happy to see your life go down the tubes.

In short, had he taken the GPO and then said 'Well, sorry you're upset, but it was legal and I didn't know you guys treat this place as a marine reserve--because, you know, it's not.' when confronted, I'd only support efforts to change the rules. But because I took the time to get to see how he was dealing with the situation and to see how he presented himself to the world, it's my opinion that there's more he deserves than just a future law change.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Regarding last night's conversation about the gender of this octopus, and what the game warden said ...

What was that I was saying about if you say something enough times it'll become true?

Diver surprised by reaction to his octopus hunt | Local News | The Seattle Times

People tend to believe what they choose to believe. Before you believe what was printed, do a little investigating. Listen to the interview with that game warden ... it's in video on some of the links in this thread. Listen closely and tell me where she mentions the gender of this animal. You won't ... because she didn't.

What you're choosing to believe is a claim made by Dylan to a newspaper reporter three days later ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I choose to believe a game warden over a self appointed playground bully / scuba police.

... she never said it.

You're choosing to believe a claim made by Dylan ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

If the warden never mentioned the sex of the octopus then where did "chrpai" got the idea from? Seattletimes? And where did Seattletimes got the info from?

... an interview with Dylan.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

I just received this statement from the WDFW ...

I just checked back with the enforcement officer, who reiterated what she told me last week: That she did not ask the diver about the gender of the octopus. The diver did tell her that the octopus was not sitting on eggs, but that’s as far as the conversation about sex went. That’s not surprising, since the gender of the animal didn’t figure into the legality of the diver’s actions. I also checked back with Bob Sizemore, who can’t identify the animal’s gender from the photos available. (The officer didn’t take any at the scene, so he could only judge by what is available online.)

I haven’t talked to any other fishery managers about the octopus issue today. As I told you on Friday, they are looking into options for Alki Beach, but this will likely remain a topic of discussion for several days before anyone decides on a course of action. If and when that happens, I’ll let you know.

Craig Bartlett
WDFW Public Affairs
(360) 902-2259

Draw your own conclusions about who's telling the truth.

It's irrelevent in any case at this point. The Fish and Wildlife Commission is holding hearings on establishing a protection zone for these animals later this week. We plan to be active participants in that discussion.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[Flodad]

Dr Lecter..I agree with what you posted. Its the actions after the kill (and all that hes done outside of just lilling the octo). I agree.

Bob, thanks for the followup and the contact.

 

[CAPTAIN SINBAD]

Marine life conservation is an important issue. There are laws and regulations that are already in place to protect various forms of marine life from extinction. If someone is operating outside those laws, then he is a criminal. If someone is hunting within those approved state laws then we call it "following regulations." This kid was in the second category. In other words, he upheld every single aspect of law that applied to hunting in the region. People who make these regulations and enforce them have absolutely no complaints against this dude. They have looked into this case and have found him to be as law/regulation abiding as one can be. Now most objections are coming from internet crusaders and cyber vigilantes. Surprisingly these individuals are also admitting that there should be laws to protect marine life and that this kid upheld every law that was made in this regard. What he did not uphold in their opinion was their own un-written code of honor! (whatever that means.)

Now if people honestly believe that the established laws are insufficient, then we can work towards making these laws more stringent. But as any neutral individual can see, this criticism is not grounded in any law to begin with. The criticism comes from a moral code of unwritten, unofficial, unuttered, highly ancient, extremely sacred rules of Ninja honor that we all scuba divers had sworn to uphold when we all graduated from the Shaolin Monastry!

 

[Them]

I didn't read the whole thread... More than I should have though.

1) to Bob's question of how to handle... I personally despise knee-jerk reactions. The octopus hunter's "I'll come back and do it again tomorrow" was a knee-jerk. Frankly so was Bob's confrontation. If you see someone doing something legal, but that you don't like, the first thing you do should be NOTHING. For 24 hours. Cool off, calm down, and see if it is really a problem. If it is really a problem, and a trend instead of an isolated incident, THEN work to convince others that it's a problem. If you live in a democracy you have no excuse for going personal or using coercion against an individual.

2) about the octopus hunter... If the contents of his Facebook page are as described, I flat don't like that sort of person. Never have, never will. I don't like them or their actions. That said, they usually violate some existing law. He probably poaches, or violates animal treatment laws, or the like. So using his actions as the basis for new regulation is both redundant (there are already laws to control his behavior) and illogical (if his violation of existing regulation is ignored, why should I believe his violations of a new reg will not be?). It maybe possible to educate him, but only if you can get his respect and that is a long shot.

I agree that the octopus hunter sounds like scum but I think Bob failed to behave the way a member of a civilized and democratic society should in this sort of conflict. Maybe I'm just feeling all civic-minded after doing jury duty today but I think Bob's actions were as bad in their own way as the octopus hunter's...maybe worse because the Octo Hunter can stop the harm of his actions by simply stopping. Bob started something that may continue to harm not just octo hunter but people with similar names or faces, people who are diving in other areas, perhaps even himself in the future if someone decides that the answer is (for example) to ban diving to protect these fragile octopuses... and he has no way to stop or control what he set in motion.

No cookie for anyone.

 

[Dr. Lecter]

If someone is hunting within those approved state laws then we call it "following regulations." This kid was in the second category. In other words, he upheld every single aspect of law that applied to hunting in the region. People who make these regulations and enforce them have absolutely no complaints against this dude. They have looked into this case and have found him to be as law/regulation abiding as one can be.

So what? You have your opinion of this guy (evidently a fairly high one), and others have theirs. Surely you're not begrudging others their opinion and their rights to act on it within the bounds of the law, even if those actions make this poor guy unhappy?

 

[paulw]

Marine life conservation is an important issue. There are laws and regulations that are already in place to protect various forms of marine life from extinction. If someone is operating outside those laws, then he is a criminal. If someone is hunting within those approved state laws then we call it "following regulations." This kid was in the second category. In other words, he upheld every single aspect of law that applied to hunting in the region. People who make these regulations and enforce them have absolutely no complaints against this dude. They have looked into this case and have found him to be as law/regulation abiding as one can be. Now most objections are coming from internet crusaders and cyber vigilantes. Surprisingly these individuals are also admitting that there should be laws to protect marine life and that this kid upheld every law that was made in this regard. What he did not uphold in their opinion was their own un-written code of honor! (whatever that means.)

Now if people honestly believe that the established laws are insufficient, then we can work towards making these laws more stringent. But as any neutral individual can see, this criticism is not grounded in any law to begin with. The criticism comes from a moral code of unwritten, unofficial, unuttered, highly ancient, extremely sacred rules of Ninja honor that we all scuba divers had sworn to uphold when we all graduated from the Shaolin Monastry!

I have not seen a post arguing against any of your statements of law, he acted within the law. I think everyone agrees that he has the "LEGAL RIGHT" but most people say so what, that just means it is legal not right. The guy acted like a jerk and is being treated as a jerk and he brought it on himself. The "criticism is not grounded in any law to begin with" statement says to you the community's right to voice their opinion on anything but written "LAW" is wrong because the law is the only thing that is right. Remember the law says I can say that I think he is acting like a spoiled jerk and that I think that doing what he says he is going to continue doing is disgusting and socially repugnant and I can also tell all my friends what I think, it is legal. As for the "moral code" yep we need more of them instead of more laws, laws are for those who disrespect what the community finds unacceptable and I think it is a shame we need so many laws. I think most people wish to do the right thing and given a chance they will, even if there is no LAW on the books.
Whatever, I believe the guy has probably learned a valuable lesson and will hopefully find a new place to hunt if he still wants to. Maybe he will use a camera instead

 

[shoredivr]

This kid was in the second category. In other words, he upheld every single aspect of law that applied to hunting in the region. People who make these regulations and enforce them have absolutely no complaints against this dude.

Apparently he bragged on his FB page when it was public about hunting in the Edmonds Underwater Park, which is a protected area. This was posted in the Northwest Dive Club thread Northwest Dive Club • View topic - Octopus hunters in Cove 2 ...

Mentioned at post in that thread on Fri Nov 2 at 11:23 pm, and other places.

 

[lowviz]

There are Hunters and then there are hunters.

MaxBottomtime answered me to my satisfaction.

Here you go. Octopus hunter: 'It's no different than fishing' | Local & Regional | Seattle News, Weather, Sports, Breaking News | KOMO News...//...

Quoting from above: "The idea to catch an octopus came from a friend's art project, Mayer said.

"He wanted me to get something from nature, so I got an octopus."

Additionally, you can hear the "hunter's" own explanation in his own words.


Yes, it was all legal.

 

[Rooster In Ohio]

Again, for those it the cheap seats:

I don't think anyone has a problem with Bob et al. exercising they right as citizens to petition the government to change the law so that it is no longer lawful to [activity] [thing] at [location].

Here is where I have a problem: there was NO NEED to out this diver, publish his name, publish pictures of his vehicle with plate, contact his employer, contact businesses whith whom he does business, contact his family, make threats, suggest that others follow him around with a spear gun and "do what ever comes naturally (I paraphrase)", or ANY OF THE LIKE in order to accomplish what petitioning the government may or may not do. IMHO, ALL OF THIS WAS VINDICTIVE, MEAN, NASTY, AND AN EXAMPLE OF THE BASEST OF HUMAN NATURE. So someone told you to f-off. I can't keep track of how often I am told this by guys in grey $2,500 suits in a board room, so nobody should be surprised to get this reaction after inserting oneslf into a situation (if that was the reaction, I would deduce that the confrontation was not something along the lines of "Nice octo! I think I took pictures of that one a bunch of times. I sure am going to miss it - in fact, I know a lot of people are going to miss it. We all kind of thought everybody had agreed to not hunt here. I'm all about hunting and know some really kick-butt areas around here that people don't visit that much and offer much better hunting. I even happen to be an instructor (or know someone that is). I'll tell you what - would you be interested in tossing that octo back in exchange for getting together next weekend - I will show you a couple of great sites and help you out on whatever you are working on. Bring your friend if you want - I'll bring a friend, too, so we have equal buddy teams. BTW, here is a website I spend a lot of time on - I'm Bob. You might also check out my blog - I've got some great pics that you might find interesting.") In any confrontation, you have a choice - escalate or de-escalate. The mature person manages the conversation and de-escalates. Unless that person WANTS the other person to act out and thereby create a situation (wasn't the existence of the animal situation enough???).

And here is the great thing everyone is choosing to ignore - if you apply for a real job these days, the first thing any employer does is to google your name. Nice job searing a scarlet letter on this guy just because he didn't like the 'tude he received and responded like any other 20 year old (and many 30 or 40 year olds) would. And don't give me all of that about his facebook page - people grow up, clean it up, take it down, whatever. Now he can't. Hope you are proud.

So, somebody tell me that the virtual whipping all you high and mighty types gave is right and that it has anything to do with saving wildlife (after all - what about the guy that is pulling up at Alki right now, hasn't read this thread, and is about to piss off all of your self-righteous types all over again - how does tainting this guy for life help stop the next guy??).

Frankly, the more I think about this the more I am inclined to pick up the phone and call one of my friends in Seattle and ask them to intervene legally as the only way the kid is going to clear his name now is by ending this with a court order saying he is the victim here (which he appears to be). I don't like this guy, but I've spent my entire adult life working to uphold the law and stand up against bullys - be it in the Marines, in law enforcement, or in the corporate world - and boy, do I hate bullying.

So, tell me where you all are right and I am wrong.

R/S,

db

P.S. Bob, as I said before, I respect you greatly as a diver and an environmentalist. I just think you took it a bit too far here - and then a bunch of others picked up the ball, ran it through the end zone, out the tunnel, down the street, and up the Space Needle.