How to proceed with conflicting dive buddy?

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S****N

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In my profession (construction) OSHA requires a competent person for tasks such as, crane rigging and lifting, confined space entry and trench excavation. I know this is different from the accident described. However, the competence begins at the planning of the task. In this accident who was the competent person? This is like when two pilots enter the cockpit, it is determined who is Pilot in Command and has full responsibility for calling the shots, unless the other pilot determines the pilot in command is incompetent. Did the buddy assume the the instructor was the competent person? Don't know and never will. Did the buddy take over this role? Did he do it soon enough? The laws and verdict could be argued forever. But the simple fact remains "anyone can call a dive for any reason" and this reason is not to be questioned during the dive. Discussed and debated after? Yes. The really sad part is, this could have been prevented starting at the beginning.
That’s why for some agencies it is mandatory to determine upon arrival who will be the dive leader or to say it in aviation terms: the pilot in command. When buoyancy problems arose, the PIC should have called the dive.
 

boulderjohn

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This thread is not about Malta laws or that particular dive.
Question here is how would you proceed if your buddy ignores your call to end the dive? Or go up, left/right/whatever?
This was a technical dive, and in technical diving, everyone is trained to obey the thumb. I can't imagine anyone not obeying the call to end a technical dive. If it were to happen, I would begin the process of ending the dive and assuming the other diver would eventually comply.

I suppose the same would be true on a recreational dive, although I would not be as worried in that case.
 

Beau Holden

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Question here is how would you proceed if your buddy ignores your call to end the dive? Or go up, left/right/whatever?

I would end the dive and start my ascent.
 

SlugLife

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is is correct subforum, so new divers can also have an idea how to react. (Mods, feel free to move this)
This thread is motivated by a conviction of a diver by Maltese court Maltese court convicts dive buddy.
While we don't know full story, I'll go on assumption that what is said in this article is true
So, my question is, how to proceed? You see that your buddy is not in any shape to continue dive, yet refuses to end it. Do you continue with the dive to stay with your dive buddy or do you end it on your own and risk leaving your buddy alone?
Personally, if I am not happy with a dive and my buddy refuses to respect my call to end it, I would go up on my own. I am aware that this would bring increased risk of me being charged if something happens afterwards, but we are trained to not push the dive we are not happy with.
Your thoughts?
It's worth nothing that case is absolutely absurd. I left several comments about how absolutely absurd, illogical, and bogus everything the prosecutor said was in other threads. I don't want to re-hash things I already posted, but just to provide a brief example, the prosecutor expected the diver to endanger himself to surface, just in case his buddy MIGHT be on the surface, and MIGHT need assistance ... despite the fact that he didn't know if his buddy was on the surface or needed assistance. There may be something about the Malta legal system which is very different from the rest of the world, but I wouldn't treat the actions of a Malta court as applicable to the rest of the world.

Anyway, for myself I prefer to dive solo, and when with a buddy, we have a briefing or agreement about how to handle "lost" buddy procedure. Usually, I prefer the procedure is to look around for a minute, perhaps go back where you came from for 30 seconds, and then if nothing, just continue along your dive. Visibility is so bad where I dive, that buddy-diving is usually impractical.
 

SlugLife

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what a crock of s**t. the laws must be very different in that country.
if the guy was her instructor and they were training on that dive, then yes, i would agree with the courts.
but based on what i just read, the only one at fault here is the victim herself who clearly should not have been in the water that day, and was not competent to be diving using the gear she had.
what a sad outcome for everyone.
i was recently asked to possibly go on a trip to this area. now i know what my answer will be. no thanks.
btw.....since when is "seawater drowning" a natural cause.
I think one of the articles I read referred to her as an instructor as well. Theoretically, she should have been more than competent and capable of doing the dive solo.
This thread is not about Malta laws or that particular dive.
Question here is how would you proceed if your buddy ignores your call to end the dive? Or go up, left/right/whatever?
This thread is about (a) how that dive and conviction (b) may affect your buddy-diving procedures.

Unfortunately, "(a)" is a critical component to answering the question, especially because of how absurd and not-normal the conviction was. I know for a FACT the prosecutor had zero case, without watching the trial, on the basis of things the prosecutor is quoted saying in multiple articles. The prosecutor said things about buddy-diving which contradict the training normally provided to open-water divers.

Because of how absurd this is, the answer to "(b)" depends on "(a)" which suggests things like not-buddy-diving, or avoiding diving in Malta.
 

ShariM

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It depends. If my buddy was someone whom I know well, I may trust their judgement more than someone I just met.

I’d like to remind everyone that reporters are notoriously lousy writing about dive accidents. It’s quite possible there’s something the court was presented with that didn’t make it into the article.
 

lermontov

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To me, the biggest lesson from this story is one several people have already mentioned on the other thread on this--never dive in Malta.
yes a moot point - I was about to book a trip to Malta next week - now im not so sure
 

The Ruttmeister

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If I want to end the dive I'm ending the dive. If they want to stop having a buddy that's their call. But if they stay down it's because they decided to dive solo.

I have a buddy who I dive with regularly (if not very often) and our number one rule is that anyone can call a dive for any reason.
We called a dive once due to very large jellies (gigantic sea nettles, looked like a movie), another time because gear moved about, surf was a touch too much and it had been too long since the last dive (so it really wasn't feeling fun).

And if I call and they stay down, unless that was the plan or there was a really good reason, I'm not going to buddy up with them again.
 

lermontov

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I would end the dive and start my ascent.
and if they die while you were on the boat do you think they'd let you off-that you abandoned your buddy, at least thats how they'd perceive it
 

Beau Holden

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and if they die while you were on the boat do you think they'd let you off-that you abandoned your buddy, at least thats how they'd perceive it
And you very well might be correct. If they deviate from the plan, that's on them. Have the plan and dive it. I've been 130+ and had to help a norc'ed diver, had to help with free flow divers .I did not abandon any of these divers. We started with a plan, dove the plan until something cause the plan to go south or reached the end of the bottom phase of the plan.

I did not abandon my buddy. The buddy chose to remain in violation of the plan. If the court says I guilty, then so be it. At least I'm alive to receive the verdict.
 
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