Question How to choose between Under the Jungle (MX) or GUE Cave 1 (FL) ?

[tbone1004]

@MolaSquared I firmly believe in beginning with the end in mind. Unfortunately we don't know where you want to end up so it's hard for us to recommend where to begin.

Mexico has a VERY different type of cave diving from Florida. Guys like @oya who have intimately dealt with both can vouch for that. There are huge benefits to learning both styles of cave diving, but where to start is a bit more difficult.
Divers that learn predominantly in Mexico tend to struggle with the flow in Florida. Watching them try to tie reels in the higher flow caves is quite comical. Conversely unless they are very experienced long distance cave divers in Florida, the sh!tshow that is the lines in Mexico can trip up the Florida divers who are used to main passages with nice thick gold lines and very clear exits.

Starting in Mexico has the benefit of a lot more bottom time due to the caves being much shallower, but Florida exposes you to running lines in very difficult conditions at the very beginning. In either instance you won't be allowed to make navigational decisions so the complex navigation of Mexico isn't something that you will really experience at Cave1 level, but the increased bottom time is nice for the instructors.
If you want to take training in both area, my general recommendation would be to take Cave1 in Florida and get your butt kicked by the flow and learn how to manage that, then take your Full/cave2 in Mexico where you really get to experience complex navigation.

Sidemount vs. backmount is a different discussion altogether. I have been sidemount cave diving for well over a decade now, but I have recently found myself in a bit of a doubles kick with most of my diving for the last couple of years either in doubles for bailout on my sidemount CCR or just using doubles for backgas on easier dives. I still dive sidemount in the caves and did last week but I do find doubles much easier at the surface for getting to/from and in/out of the water and for the OC diving that I've been doing which has been with students I find that to be well worth it.
If you are primarily a boat/shore diver and are using doubles for the majority of your diving, I wouldn't necessarily recommend going to sidemount for cave diving and trying to keep those two skills proficient unless you are diving them both regularly. On the other hand if you are only doing single tank diving at home and you plan to do a good bit of cave diving then I do genuinely prefer sidemount in a cave diving environment. Less so for the independence of the tanks and more so for the ability to fit in places that can be difficult or highly impractical with doubles *I won't say impossible because I'd be lying if I said I have never thrown them over me head to get through restrictions, but it is certainly impractical*.

My money if you already have a tech pass is to get with @mer at WetRocks and take her Cave1 in Florida. She'll put you through your paces and when you're ready to move into complex navigation you'll be able to decide whether you want to do that in doubles with GUE or sidemount with non-GUE and in Mexico or Florida. Those two variables are conveniently or inconveniently depending on your viewpoint independent variables.

 

[VikingDives]

You didn't specifically mention your goals, so it's a little hard to know what exactly you're looking for, but here's some info that might help you.

1. Nat and Vince at Under the jungle are the two best dive instructors I have ever met, and I've been a professional educator for most of my life, so I'm good at evaluating instruction. The culture and standards at that shop are fantastic. And they're pretty GUE-friendly, there are lots of divers at the shop who come from GUE backgrounds.

2. For cave diving in Mexico, sidemount is overall better IMO, and I spent a few years diving BM in those caves before I switched, so I'm very familiar with both. I did intro and full cave courses at UTJ in backmount. If your goal is to cave dive in Mexico regularly, it's worth going for SM at some point, but there's nothing wrong with doing your courses in BM. The reasons I think SM is better in MX are several; most people are diving SM, so equipment matching with buddies is a bit easier, the topography lends itself well to SM, most restrictions are a little easier in SM and there are lots of SM-only passages where it's just too tight vertically for BM. It's also much easier with entries/exits in some of the tiny, rocky, slippery-slope cenote entrances. It's just overall physically easier and more flexible in the caves.

3. I think Mexico has some advantages for cave training. The caves are generally very shallow, so intro dives can be pretty decent. There's very low flow, which makes most things easier to learn, but also presents some extra challenges, particularly in terms of dealing with silt outs and some navigation things. Ultimately if your goal is to dive in FL, that's where you should train, but as someone mentioned there is no reason why you couldn't take some classes in both places.

One other thing, Mexico is generally a really fun place to hang out (for me), and it's cheap. Some people would rather not be in a country where the language is different, the food is different, etc... but I do. That's a personal preference.

I would send Nat an email and ask her all your questions. The cost for training there is very reasonable considering the quality and effort that goes into it. How much a course ends up costing depends on how many days it takes you to finish, and no good instructor can tell you that without first evaluating your dive skills.

I concur with all of the above. The sidemount training is intense. I worked mostly with Vince when I was there, but also spent a couple of days with Lilly and Arya. They're all top notch instructors.

If your plan is to go and do sidemount and cave 1, I"d suggest talking to them up front. They do most of the cave skills in cavern, and going from BM to SM isn't as easy as just adjusting your equipment.

If cost is a consideration, housing is much cheaper in Mexico - I easily saved a hundred dollars a day in housing by going to Mexico.

Another consideration, would be language. Unless you plan on a long daily commute, you're going to have to speak some Spanish. I stayed in Puerto Aventuras, which is about a 10 minute drive to UTJ. It is probably the most "Americanized" community nearby, but you'll still need a few phrases and google translate to get by. PM me if you want some suggestions.

 

[Alaskan Scuba Dude]

Based on word of mouth, I hear great things about both Under the Jungle in Mexico and GUE Cave 1 in Florida. I'm a Fundies diver now.

My understanding is...

Mexico:

• UTJ's instructors are great
• Sidemount
• Shallower caves
• Lower flow

Florida:

• GUE instructors are great
• Backmount doubles
• Deeper caves
• Higher flow

I don't know the costs or time commitment for either path.

So how am I supposed to choose?

You can use backmount in most caves. If you're on a budget I would go Mexico.

 

[SpeedyJ]

Can’t recommend Tulum and cave 1 with Kelvin Davidson enough. Tulum is cheap, the caves are beautiful, and the training at third dimension is top notch.

Kelvin flies under the radar, but runs a first class operation and brings a wealth of diving experience accumulated over many years and in many different environments to the table. He’s extremely pragmatic in his approach to diving, willing to spend hours discussing concepts, and provides good feedback throughout a class.

Edit:
Sidemount isn’t rocket science. When you actually need it, it will be no issue to add it to your toolkit at a later point.

 

[oya]

It seems a bit like you're asking two different, but related, questions.

If the question is Mexico vs. Florida that's one thing. If it's UTJ vs GUE that's another.

I'm going to address the second question first because it's a little easier.

The way GUE instructors train and the way Nat, Vince, and the people they have mentored train are not necessarily diametrically opposed, but they are very, very different. Whether you train through GUE or UTJ you are going to get world-class instruction along with skills which reflect participation within a strong team and an ability for self-sufficiency. But the approaches, the gear configuration, the philosophies... all very different.

Example: At UTJ they teach the value of wearing a helmet - according to GUE if you wear a helmet you are an idiot. Through GUE sidemount is a mission-specific tool - at UTJ if you dive backmount you are an idiot (unless you dive with Nick).

Second question, the hairier one... Florida vs. Mexico

Strengths and weaknesses to both.

In Florida you learn flow. In Mexico you don't.
In Mexico you learn precision. In Florida you (mostly) don't.
In Florida you learn to read the cave.
In Mexico you learn halocline.
In Florida you learn depth and deco.
In Mexico you learn endurance from shallow dives.
In Florida you learn the weird hydrogeology of the single spring you enter/exit.
In Mexico you learn the weird hydrogeology of hundreds of exits.
In Florida you learn dissimilar tank gas matching.
In Mexico you learn how delicious tacos are.

Whatever. I could go on for a hell of a long time. Way longer than you are likely willing to stay awake.

Learn them both. There's time - the caves aren't going anywhere.

But, and I can't stress this enough, don't think for one bloody second, that the skill-set for one place completely prepares you for the other. It really is different enough that it is worthwhile to hire a guide in the one where you haven't been trained for a bit. It's kind of like Canadian rules football, and US college rules football -- close... but different.

 

[lostsheep]

It seems a bit like you're asking two different, but related, questions.

If the question is Mexico vs. Florida that's one thing. If it's UTJ vs GUE that's another.

I'm going to address the second question first because it's a little easier.

The way GUE instructors train and the way Nat, Vince, and the people they have mentored train are not necessarily diametrically opposed, but they are very, very different. Whether you train through GUE or UTJ you are going to get world-class instruction along with skills which reflect participation within a strong team and an ability for self-sufficiency. But the approaches, the gear configuration, the philosophies... all very different.

Example: At UTJ they teach the value of wearing a helmet - according to GUE if you wear a helmet you are an idiot. Through GUE sidemount is a mission-specific tool - at UTJ if you dive backmount you are an idiot (unless you dive with Nick).

Second question, the hairier one... Florida vs. Mexico

Strengths and weaknesses to both.

In Florida you learn flow. In Mexico you don't.
In Mexico you learn precision. In Florida you (mostly) don't.
In Florida you learn to read the cave.
In Mexico you learn halocline.
In Florida you learn depth and deco.
In Mexico you learn endurance from shallow dives.
In Florida you learn the weird hydrogeology of the single spring you enter/exit.
In Mexico you learn the weird hydrogeology of hundreds of exits.
In Florida you learn dissimilar tank gas matching.
In Mexico you learn how delicious tacos are.

Whatever. I could go on for a hell of a long time. Way longer than you are likely willing to stay awake.

Learn them both. There's time - the caves aren't going anywhere.

But, and I can't stress this enough, don't think for one bloody second, that the skill-set for one place completely prepares you for the other. It really is different enough that it is worthwhile to hire a guide in the one where you haven't been trained for a bit. It's kind of like Canadian rules football, and US college rules football -- close... but different.

Excellent answer.

FWIW, I have the misfits fins

 

[oya]

Excellent answer.

FWIW, I have the misfits fins

I LOVE your Misfits fins.

 

[VikingDives]

Example: At UTJ they teach the value of wearing a helmet - according to GUE if you wear a helmet you are an idiot. Through GUE sidemount is a mission-specific tool - at UTJ if you dive backmount you are an idiot (unless you dive with Nick).

This is just not the case. I did SM with Vince without a helmet. Did he recommend it, and explain the reasons why he thought it was a good idea? Yes.

But I wasn't an idiot - never felt that way. I understand why cave divers would want a helmet, and frankly, I'll probably choose to use one in cavern - but you are at best making a gross mis-statement.

I'm calling bovine excrement. I was just there for 15 days training with Vince. Never put a helmet on and never heard word one about it from any of the instructors I worked with. In fact, while working with Vince, he didn't wear a helmet either.

 

[kensuf]

This is just not the case. I did SM with Vince without a helmet. Did he recommend it, and explain the reasons why he thought it was a good idea? Yes.

But I wasn't an idiot - never felt that way. I understand why cave divers would want a helmet, and frankly, I'll probably choose to use one in cavern - but you are at best making a gross mis-statement.

I'm calling bovine excrement. I was just there for 15 days training with Vince. Never put a helmet on and never heard word one about it from any of the instructors I worked with. In fact, while working with Vince, he didn't wear a helmet either.

There's a thing called literary hyperbole. Oya was using it. Example, everyone knows tacos are nowhere near as good as curried tempeh.

 

[kensuf]

At any rate, back to the original topic.

The question comes down to BM vs SM.

My opinion is that SM is a tool best reserved for advanced cave diving and that beginning cave divers should learn to cave dive in BM and when they've reached a point where they need SM to see specific caves, then is a good time to make the switch.

If someone is hell bent for leather set on learning to cave dive in SM, they should have some significant experience diving SM before beginning their cave training. Learning to run a reel and read a cave are not the time to also be learning how to balance and manage a SM rig.