How Soon Before Everyone is Using a Rebreather?

[Scubastud16]

Caveseeker;

What is the new recreational RB you speak of? I'm somewhat confused by your post...is it the Deep Life? I didn't see anything on it, but with in the next year I'll certainly be in the market for an "OW-oriented" rebreather. Got any more info (links would be greatly appreciated)?

Thanks!
-Danny

 

[caveseeker7]

Just curious how most people feel about diving with a group where only one or two people are using re-breathers?

As always it depends on the people who dive them. They can be really annoying, getting their absorbent dust all over people's gear, constantly return late from dives, bitching it was too short, fuzzing around with their gear, be condescending and arrogant and generally make a nuisance of themselves.

More or less the same can be said about photographers and their gear, the DIR chaps, just about anyone.

I've been on a quite a few boats with mixed OC and RB divers, both on OC and CC.
For most part the experiences are good.

Cobalt Coast, by the way, hosts RB events, as do other destinations like Pirate Cove in the Dom Rep and some of the charter boats, from day charters to two week trips. Those usually cater to all kinds of diving from 3+ hrs to about the same as what you can get on OC. Some RBs, like the Dräger SCRs, are meant to stay within recreational limits.

 

[caveseeker7]

I'm somewhat confused by your post...

Don't worry, that happens a lot when I post. :blush:

Got any more info (links would be greatly appreciated)?

I aim to please.
Deep Life, check the Open Revolution CCR and Projects (for the commercial unit)

Poseidon for the Cis_Lunar Mk6 Discovery.
They have some info and a little pdf brochure up.
And a very interesting "Mk6 White Paper" (link direct to pdf file)

Hope that helps with the confusion.

 

[caveseeker7]

Honestly, I just don't see the need for RB's on recreational dives.

Do you see a need for recreational (as in non-professional, unlike commercial, search/rescue/recovery, scientific) dives?

Gill Envy actually answered your post really well two posts ahead of you.
To each his or her own.

Really, there are no dives I couldn't do in "recreational" doubles (i.e 80's) that I'd need a rebreather for.

The only time I dive doubles is with a rebreather in between them.

 

[caveseeker7]

you have a rebreather so you can stay longer at depths but just in case you have extra tanks to get you back

Bailout is just that, the gas to get back to the surface in an emergency.

How much you need depends on the profile, and on the gas(es) used. That is pretty much the same for OC as it is for SC OC diving. For recreational diving a CCR can offer some pretty extended NDLs, thus you'll be able to get back to the surface safely in less time. Even if you have to bailout to OC. I usually carry a fairly small 3 ltr tank of 40% nitrox on recreational dives.

When venturing deeper, more gas and gases are needed. But again, that's the same on OC. The rule of thirds (1/3 in, 1/3 out, 1/3 bailout) that cave divers use has a lot of merit, and is still used. Sometimes bailout is divided among team members, but again that applies for OC as well as RB.

The main difference is how the ali 80 jockeys usually handle their bailout.
Rule of thirds? Yeah right, imagine 25 cf down, 25 cf up, 25 cf bailout ... more like return to surface with about 500 psi of their initial 3000 psi - the rule of sixth, without much redundancy. Independent gas supply (pony/stage tank)? That'll be the day. Maybe, just maybe, a Spare Air, just about enough to kiss their *** good-bye.

Hell, we as RB divers are actually expected to provide gas for OC buddies from our bailout tank. Because they don't have one.

often i wonder if all the tasking on managing all the bailouts/stages/ponys (whatever your flavour) add work to the dive and as a result often overworks the diver to a bad outcome and therefore the high percentage of incidents and bad rep the units earn

It could be, in the odd case ... has happened on OC too, wrong gas management leading to a fatality. But I really think that would be the odd exception as a reason for a fatality. By the way, would that be considered a rebreather fatality or an OC fatality?

 

[SFLDiver3445]

I absolutely understand people's lack of willingness to take advantage of the benefits of a rebreather. If I were a recreational open circuit diver that had not had real exposure to rebreather divers, I would probably be reluctant myself.

However, if you are an active diver who longs to constantatly expand your diving experiences, which normally requires some sort capability to extend your bottom time and/or depth limits, and you have the good fortune to be exposed to rebreather divers who are generally not limited to traditional bottom time and depth limits in the same way, then the advantages provided by using a rebreather will quickly become overwhelmingly evident to you and your mindset will eventually be changed.

With that in mind, I also understand peoples fear of the additional dangers involved in using a rebreather, as well as the reluctance to create additional pre/post dive work in preparing one's dive equipment. I however think that the design innovations (i.e., self calibrating sensor, slimline bailout valve and the other recreationally oriented simple design features, etc.) of the new Poseidon Mark VI Rebreather will possibly go a long way towards making potential recreational users more trusting of rebreather units, if and when it is properly marketed and properly priced to make it accessible to the masses.

The bottom line is that, in the same way that many product were first shunned by the masses as too expensive, unnecessary and unsafe, only to eventually be accepted as a standard required peice of equipment, the rebreather will eventually become the norm. Granted, the overall number of active divers who are willing to spend significant amounts of money on dive equipment is small in comparrisson to many the users of other products displaying similar evelutionary characteristics, but it will happen - It's just a matter of when and not if!

 

[dhaas]

SFLDIVER3445 and others,

Rebreathers will never become mainstream for less than 100' recreational diving.....

1) Population of majority of active traveling sport divers is getting older. Can barely mount the BC and reg correctly or monitor their computer (pay a dive guide to keep them safe) The weight of RBs is even worse for this majority.

2) You see rebreathers because you're going out on dives in a very, very small niche of total divers. Deep, dark, cold long dives.......Not the majority of the market....

3) UW photographers haven't migrated to them as much as everyone thinks. Stealth hunting skills, the right lens and knowing behavior gets you close to critters. Google for the ancient Howard Hall article how they use their RBs to WAIT for animals to be cooperative for filming.

4) Cost will never be as inexpensive as a OC rig......

Just one guy's 38 years of diving opinion.

dhaas

 

[ScubaDadMiami]

SFLDIVER3445 and others,

Rebreathers will never become mainstream for less than 100' recreational diving.....

1) Population of majority of active traveling sport divers is getting older. Can barely mount the BC and reg correctly or monitor their computer (pay a dive guide to keep them safe) The weight of RBs is even worse for this majority.

Rebreathers continue to get smaller and lighter. They will likely continue to become simpler and even more reliable as the technology develops.

As for weight, instead of carrying two 80s to the boat and then dealing with changing over tanks between dives, you can get a rebreather that is just over the weight of a single 80 setup that will last up to four hours independent of depth, and you can spend your surface interval relaxing while others are dealing with changing over tanks on a rocking boat.

More resorts will start carrying them, and recreational units suited to this kind of environment are starting to come out on the market. Give it a little time, and you will see that people are going to be using these more and more.

Baby boomers like tech toys and tend to be financially well off. However, even if rebreathers don't catch on for them, they certainly will for the next diver age group in line (and so on). It is just a matter of time. It was not so long ago that people were telling automobile owners to "get a horse" because they were reliable, cheap, didn't break down, didn't require the upkeep and would do all the chores a farmer would ever need. Never say never.

2) You see rebreathers because you're going out on dives in a very, very small niche of total divers. Deep, dark, cold long dives.......Not the majority of the market....

You don't know SFLDiver3445 very well, do you? One of our most recent dives was a three hour long dive in about 60 to 70 feet of 77 degree water. We drifted along from wreck to wreck, then onto the reef. We do dives like this all the time. Sure, rebreathers are great for deep dives and cave diving. However, when you are surrounded by dolphins and all kinds of wild life in the shallows, rebreather diving for "recreational" dives takes on a whole new meaning.

Oh, that the "surrounded by wild life" part happens on almost every dive that we do because we are silent and we don't scare away everything. That's why so many divers in our group (our last outing had 14 rebreather divers taking over the entire boat) have their photos published in dive magazines.

3) UW photographers haven't migrated to them as much as everyone thinks. Stealth hunting skills, the right lens and knowing behavior gets you close to critters. Google for the ancient Howard Hall article how they use their RBs to WAIT for animals to be cooperative for filming.

Not taking anything away from the tremendous accomplishments of Howard Hall, one of the greats of all time (nor Steven Frink, nor Marty Snyderman, etc.). However, it is just a matter of time before virtually all photographers/videographers are diving rebreathers almost exclusively. Bubbles and noises of open circuit equipment certainly do not attract fish and wild life. See the above comments concerning how our photographers are all on rebreathers for a reason.

4) Cost will never be as inexpensive as a OC rig......

Never say never. It is just a matter of time. Besides, not everyone goes out looking for the absolutely least expensive car on the market when out shopping. In fact, if everyone practiced free diving, they could give up the expense of tanks and just free dive to recreational limits. However, most people enjoy being able to stay down for a while. Sometimes, a longer while is even better!

 

[caveseeker7]

SFLDIVER3445 and others,

Rebreathers will never become mainstream for less than 100' recreational diving.....

That could very well be, but ...

1) Population of majority of active traveling sport divers is getting older. Can barely mount the BC and reg correctly or monitor their computer (pay a dive guide to keep them safe) The weight of RBs is even worse for this majority.

My steel 72, with a Zeagle Ranger BCD, Atomic B1 reg and Uwatec Air console weights in at 51 lbs. The PRISM Topaz I dove came in at 47,5 with full 3 ltr tanks and 6 lbs of absorbent.

The steel 72 lasts me for 30 to 40 minutes, depending on depth and exersion.
The PRISM Topaz is good for 300 minutes, with gas to spare.

The rebreather also gives me warm, moist gas to breathe, which greatly increases comfort during dives in temperate SoCal waters. It also gives me the "ideal" nitrox mix for the depth I'm at, greatly reducing tissue loading and extending NDLs.

On a typical SoCal dive boat, where you have 45 to 60 mins for a dive I could just go on a weekend charter and dive. Usually I refill the diluent (air) cylinder at the end of the day, but that's it.

Pre-dive takes about 7 minutes, with 4-5 mins of them breathing off the unit before getting into the water. Post dive just shut off electronics and tanks. Usually a quick step under the shower for a rinse before I doff it. All else is done in the comforts of home the evening before, about 40 mins of easy assembly and checking off a written list ... getting together and checking the rest of my gear adds about half that again.

With the Sport Kiss the prep time is even shorter, the scrubber lasts half as long. Perfect for a single day trip, or just get a second scrubber container, fill it at home and pop it in. Takes less than 10 mins including checking the seals.

2) You see rebreathers because you're going out on dives in a very, very small niche of total divers. Deep, dark, cold long dives.......Not the majority of the market....

While that is where they are financially paying off in gas savings, the majority of CCR divers probably use them to depth of around 70 m (210 ft), and I believe there are more people diving them shallower than 40 m (130 ft) than over 100 m (330 ft) these days. Aside from several thousand SCRs sold by Dräger in the last 12 years, small CCRs have been doing quite well. The Sport Kiss and Evolution are prime examples. While both can go deeper, and are used regularly past recreational depths, I know quite a few people diving them within recreational limits.

3) UW photographers haven't migrated to them as much as everyone thinks. Stealth hunting skills, the right lens and knowing behavior gets you close to critters.

Well, there's much truth to that, RBs don't make you invisible. But they do make a lot less noise, and that helps quite a bit in my experience.

4) Cost will never be as inexpensive as a OC rig......

For recreational diving certainly not, then again, look at the OC market. Gear gets more expensive all the time on the high end. Sure, big battle for low prices on the lower end of the scale, but who would have thought people are willing to $200 for a pair fins, $100+ for their mask, $600+ for their BC, 600+ for their reg, $1400 for a watch size dive computer, $2500+ for their suit ... .

My dad's golf clubs and bag cost more than my CCR ... .

 

[Tienuts]

Rebreathers will never become mainstream for less than 100' recreational diving.....

Just like in the 60's, when they said the average citizen would never own a computer.

You see rebreathers because you're going out on dives in a very, very small niche of total divers. Deep, dark, cold long dives.......Not the majority of the market....

Deep, dark and cold, like this dive?

My coldest dive has been 77 degrees, and the majority of them on my Optima have been less than 90 feet.