How Rigorous Should Training Be?

[MXGratefulDiver]

In the context and flow of the conversation at the time, I didn't interpret those comments to mean a cave instructor can be inexperienced, but that you don't necessarily need one who is famous for doing the "big" dives. I think it's a no-brainer that you want an instructor who knows more than you do ... who is capable of not just teaching, but diving at a high level and in exemplary fashion. But it don't take a Jarrod Jablonski to teach a basic cave class.

That's how I took it, at least ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Can'tcha just admit it was a pisspoor analogy?

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Can'tcha just admit it was a pisspoor analogy?

Sure ... it was a pisspoor analogy ... but I still don't think he meant to imply that someone can teach cave diving without experience.

John's never struck me as being a particularly retarted person ... so I don't think he'd say something like that ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[SuPrBuGmAn]

Well crap... this forums gonna get boring again :/

 

[ucfdiver]

In the context and flow of the conversation at the time, I didn't interpret those comments to mean a cave instructor can be inexperienced, but that you don't necessarily need one who is famous for doing the "big" dives. I think it's a no-brainer that you want an instructor who knows more than you do ... who is capable of not just teaching, but diving at a high level and in exemplary fashion. But it don't take a Jarrod Jablonski to teach a basic cave class.

That's how I took it, at least ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Frankly, my biggest issue with training is that several cave instructors have only dove a select few caves over and over and over...particularly Ginnie, Peacock, JB.

Do you think cave instruction would be overall better if instructors were required to have at least a reasonably obtainable number such as 50 systems and 500 cave dives, as well as participation in a project like the WKPP, KUR, Rose Permit, 5 hole, Edwards, Madison Mapping, Gator Hole or some project like that... so that they're aware of the hazards their students will see in the future? I do.

These crossover programs are the biggest issue I see. One agency lets a fly by night instructor through who's been cave diving 2-3 years, and within a few weeks he/she is teaching for every agency under the sun, and plastering class advertisements all over the forums trying to earn a quick buck.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Frankly, my biggest issue with training is that several cave instructors have only dove a select few caves over and over and over...particularly Ginnie, Peacock, JB.

Again, that's endemic to all types of dive training. We have the same issues here with instructors who rarely dive outside of the usual training sites.

Do you think cave instruction would be overall better if instructors were required to have at least a reasonably obtainable number such as 50 systems and 500 cave dives, as well as participation in a project like the WKPP, KUR, Rose Permit, 5 hole, Edwards, Madison Mapping, Gator Hole or some project like that... so that they're aware of the hazards their students will see in the future? I do.

Absolutely! I have a select list of instructors I will recommend locally. They cover a broad spectrum of experience levels, agencies, and types of classes they teach. The one thing they all have in common is that they're active divers outside of classes, and most have some level of tech or cave training. While I don't think that's necessary for teaching OW classes, I do believe that the broader and deeper an instructors experiences are, the more context they can put around what they teach. Any damn fool can regurgitate what's in the class materials ... but there's a big difference between parroting some text and explaining what it means and how it will apply to your diving ... and I think the latter can only be derived through diving experience.

These crossover programs are the biggest issue I see. One agency lets a fly by night instructor through who's been cave diving 2-3 years, and within a few weeks he/she is teaching for every agency under the sun, and plastering class advertisements all over the forums trying to earn a quick buck.

I can't really speak to this issue as it applies to cave training ... I only have personal experience with two cave instructors, and I am very happy to have that experience with both of them. But what you're describing really boils down to people who approach scuba instruction from the perspective of only doing as little as they can get away with. As I have previously stated, those will not be good instructors no matter how much experience they have ... because their attitude sucks. Any instructor who's going to put minimal effort into becoming an instructor can't be expected to put anything but minimal effort into your training either ... and it's best to find out who they are and stay away from them. Seems to me that by the time you reach a point where you're considering cave training, you should be sufficiently aware of what to look for in an instructor to be able to spot the red flags and look elsewhere when you see one ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[rjack321]

I can't really speak to this issue as it applies to cave training ... I only have personal experience with two cave instructors, and I am very happy to have that experience with both of them. But what you're describing really boils down to people who approach scuba instruction from the perspective of only doing as little as they can get away with. As I have previously stated, those will not be good instructors no matter how much experience they have ... because their attitude sucks. Any instructor who's going to put minimal effort into becoming an instructor can't be expected to put anything but minimal effort into your training either ... and it's best to find out who they are and stay away from them. Seems to me that by the time you reach a point where you're considering cave training, you should be sufficiently aware of what to look for in an instructor to be able to spot the red flags and look elsewhere when you see one ...

You'd think this would be the case... But some instructors and some students really just want the card(s) though. Aka badge collecting.

 

[Rainer]

What I've seen is a bit different. It's not that they want the cards (badges), but that they want to do the dives. Somehow they equate getting a card as meaning they're perfectly qualified to do these bigger dives, regardless of the strength of their education or personal skills.

"I have this fancy card, I *must* be competent."

You'd think this would be the case... But some instructors and some students really just want the card(s) though. Aka badge collecting.

 

[rjack321]

What I've seen is a bit different. It's not that they want the cards (badges), but that they want to do the dives. Somehow they equate getting a card as meaning they're perfectly qualified to do these bigger dives, regardless of the strength of their education or personal skills.

"I have this fancy card, I *must* be competent."

I rarely notice them. Must be natural selection or somethin'

I do see "certified" people not using their purported certs quite often. I'm not privy to their thoughts but I suspect they are nervous of injury/death or just not looking/being perfect.

There's certainly a balance and I can empathize with "bigger dives" getting increasingly expensive and time committing for decreasing BT. I like GUE's standard of being trained at least 1 level above your teaching level and having to do personal diving at that level to keep that cert "current".

 

[Rainer]

I hear it all the time (outside the group I tend to dive with): "I passed the class therefore I'm good to do the dives for which I'm certified."

It just isn't the case that being certified for something means you're competent to do it (unfortunately).

I'm pretty happy with my current certifications and think I'm making decent use of them. I don't have much interest in "bigger" dives (for reasons you mention: cost and ratio of bottom time to deco time, plus a general lack of interesting targets deeper, and a lack of buddies wanting to do those dives). The past couple years I've averaged a trimix/decompression dive ever other week. I actually plan to cut back this year (substantially) and focus on other diving interests (photography/video, new sites, more dives with my wife).

I rarely notice them. Must be natural selection or somethin'

I do see "certified" people not using their purported certs quite often. I'm not privy to their thoughts but I suspect they are nervous of injury/death or just not looking/being perfect.

There's certainly a balance and I can empathize with "bigger dives" getting increasingly expensive and time committing for decreasing BT. I like GUE's standard of being trained at least 1 level above your teaching level and having to do personal diving at that level to keep that cert "current".