How often do you need a 400ft primary reel?

[tbone1004]

I was thinking of the smaller *150*’ classic “safety” reels, which I’ve seen used as a primary in those tourist caves. They are smaller, but who cares on a primary? Seems like my logic is OK, then.

And nice to know that I’m not the only one who jams them...

any diver who claims they have never jammed a reel either hasn't been diving for very long or is lying to you. We've all been stupid and done it before. What is interesting is that the tolerances in the classic style reel are left really loose to make unjamming them fairly easy, but the sidewinders are really tight so they are less prone to jamming but I've still seen them jam before and they are a b!tch and a half to get undone and basically impossible without disassembly.
The key to the classic style reels it to keep your finger on the barrel when paying out *which is admittedly fairly uncomfortable with the clicking of each of the notches but it pays off*, and to use your left index finger to keep line tension when reeling in. They won't jam if you do that, and that is one thing I've never been able to do properly with a sidewinder. I have big hands, but if you try to keep tension on the line with your finger it just piles up on the handle side of the barrel.

 

[Manatee Diver]

Moreover, if you’re playing by Cave 1 rules, you can extend your envelope a little, by running that reel not to the start of the mainline, but to a first jump lets say. Eg in Nohoch, you can run it to the very nice Parker line, without creating a navigational decision, as would be the case when doing a jump.

I thought that the 800ft and 1,200ft reels were the Cave 1 reels.

@tmassey 400ft and 250ft primary reels are usually identical. 400ft has #24 line on it that we call "cave line", and the 250ft reels have #36 line that we call "wreck line". The reel itself is the same.

In the slidelock line they have a 250ft with standard cave line, same diameter as a primary, but a slightly thinner spool.

And nice to know that I’m not the only one who jams them...

I jammed my classic safety reel during a lost line drill, that wasn't fun. The instructor unjammed it, but in the process there was now a knot in the middle of the loop so I couldn't tie off on the rock. Also not fun. And it was during this drill that I lost my prosthetic fin in the cave, very not fun.

The key to the classic style reels it to keep your finger on the barrel when paying out *which is admittedly fairly uncomfortable with the clicking of each of the notches but it pays off*, and to use your left index finger to keep line tension when reeling in. They won't jam if you do that, and that is one thing I've never been able to do properly with a sidewinder. I have big hands, but if you try to keep tension on the line with your finger it just piles up on the handle side of the barrel.

Yeah I have that issue as well, and often have to clean up my slidelock reel.

 

[rddvet]

I rarely use my 400ft reel in Florida. I always bring one to Mexico, but it’s been very rare that a 250 wouldn’t be enough. One example is nahoch in Mexico. You don’t need a long reel for the regular entrance. There is another line in the area of the mainline that is kind of a backdoor. It loops around and then meets the mainline again. First time I did it I took the long route and was at the very end of my 200 ft primary. Second time O took the 400 but found it much more easily and dint need that much.

as for primaries, buy a halcyon or lm. I’m not a fan of dr reels. I think they’re of lesser quality. I actually greatly prefer the halcyon reels. Not only are they better but they will hold a better resale value if you decide you don’t need it.

 

[tmassey]

I jammed my classic safety reel during a lost line drill, that wasn't fun. The instructor unjammed it, but in the process there was now a knot in the middle of the loop so I couldn't tie off on the rock. Also not fun. And it was during this drill that I lost my prosthetic fin in the cave, very not fun.

that reminds me of the information given to me by my intro cave instructor after I executed the lost line drill three times and did not find a line. he said, “well, the standard does not require you to find the line, only to execute the drill. If anything, that should teach you just how important it is not to lose the line…”

(for the record, I did find the line in my lost line drill in full cave. My buddy, who was probably 20+ feet away when I found it, said he could hear my celebratory yell.)

 

[Divin'Papaw]

I have a 350' Larry Green that I love. Not a cave diver. I use it in open water for my flag. I can easily attach a reef hook as well and it is very sturdy. 350' is a bit much but on the deeper dives with current I can easily end up with 200'+ of line out. That's getting a bit close to 250' for my liking. The stronger the current the more line used as the flag obviously isn't straight overhead.

A bit off topic but something so consider if you ever use it more than just in caves.

 

[rddvet]

that reminds me of the information given to me by my intro cave instructor after I executed the lost line drill three times and did not find a line. he said, “well, the standard does not require you to find the line, only to execute the drill. If anything, that should teach you just how important it is not to lose the line…”

(for the record, I did find the line in my lost line drill in full cave. My buddy, who was probably 20+ feet away when I found it, said he could hear my celebratory yell.)

Not to be rude to you, but that bothers me that you weren't required to finish the drill. I would agree that executing it would be the most ideal thing to learn, but honestly it's exceptionally important once you find the line to be able to tie off to it and make the appropriate markings for your buddy (appropriate depends on what you were taught such as leaving a light on the line or an arrow or a wetnote). It's not that easy when you're blindfolded. In my cave 1 class my wife did a lost line and found the line, then in the process of tying off to the line somehow got the line wrapped around her long hose. She tied off, thought all was good, and when she went to swim off she couldn't go more than a foot. The two instructors and I just watched and giggled, but she did great. She couldnt' figure out how to unwrap herself so she cut the line, and then reattached to the gold line all while keeping one hand on the gold line so she wouldn't lose it again. It was very impressive. But the point is it's not that easy in the dark and eventhough it's not required in the standards to complete the task I really think it should be.

 

[tbone1004]

@rddvet definitely agree on resale value and "feel" of the Halcyon and LM reels. There is something uniquely sexy about machined delrin vs injection molded plastic and bent metal. My safety reel is a sexy sidewinder and I wish someone made a top handled sexy reel, but I have yet to find one so I just use the cheapies.

@tmassey during my cave class we were doing a lost line drill in Cow. My instructor was rather devious on such matters so he does the drill where there is a line trap. We were off in the corner and my buddy had some computer with a pretty good backlight on it. We watched him swim up and down the passage for almost half an hour before he found it.
The next one was done in Madison. We had a split dive plan for that *long story but had another instructor with us*. I had mandatory deco on that and did the drill then headed out. Plan was that once they saw me come out into OW, they would get back in to do their lost line drills. We almost got back in the water because it took so long... It was emphasized that you have nothing to do for the rest of your life but find that line, so you damned well better find it.

 

[StefinSB]

The H reel has the advantage over the LM that the top locking scew can't come out. I wouldn't have thought that was important until cave 1 .

 

[rddvet]

With the halcyon reel there is also a hole for the ocking screw on the front or back of the handle. I believe stock the screw is in the back. I like it up front, so I switched it around. My LM reels don't allow you to move the locking screw

 

[tmassey]

Not to be rude to you, but that bothers me that you weren't required to finish the drill. I would agree that executing it would be the most ideal thing to learn, but honestly it's exceptionally important once you find the line to be able to tie off to it and make the appropriate markings for your buddy (appropriate depends on what you were taught such as leaving a light on the line or an arrow or a wetnote). It's not that easy when you're blindfolded. In my cave 1 class my wife did a lost line and found the line, then in the process of tying off to the line somehow got the line wrapped around her long hose. She tied off, thought all was good, and when she went to swim off she couldn't go more than a foot. The two instructors and I just watched and giggled, but she did great. She couldnt' figure out how to unwrap herself so she cut the line, and then reattached to the gold line all while keeping one hand on the gold line so she wouldn't lose it again. It was very impressive. But the point is it's not that easy in the dark and eventhough it's not required in the standards to complete the task I really think it should be.

Well, you’ll have to take that up with my instructor, not me. I don’t necessarily disagree with you, but I wasn’t the instructor. And like I said, I have since completed that drill.

Each time I failed, I learned something. And it certainly did drive home the point that the lost line drill is not something you want to depend on. and I certainly agree with T-bone: if you’re in that situation, you have the rest of your life to find that line. Just like any issue in scuba, for that matter.

what always makes me curious is: what other gaps are there in my training? what things did my instructor not necessarily properly emphasize? What did I do once in training so well that I didn’t do it again, and now wouldn’t know how to do it again? You can’t train for everything. And you’re not going to remember everything that you did train for.

Take the example of your wife getting tangled in the line. How often does that happen in training? Is someone who didn’t have that happen less trained? There is only so much time available to training. At some point you have to pick and choose what is going to be most valuable or have the largest impact.

don’t expect or even want any kind of answer. Not least because none of this has anything to do with whether manatee diver should have a 400 foot reel or not…