How do you know that the 11 year old is a beginner.. ???!! She/He, with an active diver Dad could have lots more dives than you or me. Jimmy wouldn't have let them go on this trip if they were beginners. please stop your assumptions. Thank you. Maggi
How many people a year die while ....
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How do you know that the 11 year old is a beginner.. ???!! She/He, with an active diver Dad could have lots more dives than you or me. Jimmy wouldn't have let them go on this trip if they were beginners. please stop your assumptions. Thank you. Maggi
An eleven year old is going to have over 500 dives? You'll forgive me if that sounds a little far fetched.
R
R
Whoever said or determined you needed 500 dives to be experienced or qualified to that extent to go on a JASA shark diving trip?!!!! I'd be interested to hear that one
On the face of it 11 does sound young but I think you need to scratch below the surface to be able to make a judgement. Certainly I'd have no doubt that JASA did. I also think you'll find that people going out on the trips at that age tend very much to be the exception and certainly not the norm
On a seprate note, this shark diving ban that was introduced in Florida in, I think, 2001 to me seems utterly farcical. My understanding is that it was introduced subsequent to the media scrum that occurred after a number of attacks on bathers, including the 9 year old who lost an arm. To blame shark feeding to my mind is utterly naive when you have a huge number of people fishing all along the coast (certainly the number of parties fishing would have far outweighed any shark diving activity) . Anyone who has witnessed underwater a fish struggling on a fishing line or spear will attest to the huge difference it makes in the behaviour of a shark (I have witnessed this with white tip reef sharks, certainly deemed as ordinarily pretty harmless but I saw as aggressive in these circumstances). This makes sharks way more aggressive than does any kind of feeding or baiting with dead fish.
Add to that the fact that sharks can quickly detect a struggling fish from long distances, plus the coastal waters where the sharks have been attracted are not always the clearest (perfect for bull sharks, which were known to be among the sharks responsible) and you have a potential recipe for disaster. I'm sure you'll also find plenty of waste being dumped by people and industry along the coasts , again which will attract sharks.
I am not saying that you should ban fishing to prevent these shark attacks. However to make shark diving the scapegoat to appease the public and the media is incredibly irresponsible when the far more likely contributor is the fishing the general public themselves participate in and the waste that people put in the sea. Add to that the extremely powerful fishing lobby in the States and shark dive operators were always going to be up against it.
On the face of it 11 does sound young but I think you need to scratch below the surface to be able to make a judgement. Certainly I'd have no doubt that JASA did. I also think you'll find that people going out on the trips at that age tend very much to be the exception and certainly not the norm
On a seprate note, this shark diving ban that was introduced in Florida in, I think, 2001 to me seems utterly farcical. My understanding is that it was introduced subsequent to the media scrum that occurred after a number of attacks on bathers, including the 9 year old who lost an arm. To blame shark feeding to my mind is utterly naive when you have a huge number of people fishing all along the coast (certainly the number of parties fishing would have far outweighed any shark diving activity) . Anyone who has witnessed underwater a fish struggling on a fishing line or spear will attest to the huge difference it makes in the behaviour of a shark (I have witnessed this with white tip reef sharks, certainly deemed as ordinarily pretty harmless but I saw as aggressive in these circumstances). This makes sharks way more aggressive than does any kind of feeding or baiting with dead fish.
Add to that the fact that sharks can quickly detect a struggling fish from long distances, plus the coastal waters where the sharks have been attracted are not always the clearest (perfect for bull sharks, which were known to be among the sharks responsible) and you have a potential recipe for disaster. I'm sure you'll also find plenty of waste being dumped by people and industry along the coasts , again which will attract sharks.
I am not saying that you should ban fishing to prevent these shark attacks. However to make shark diving the scapegoat to appease the public and the media is incredibly irresponsible when the far more likely contributor is the fishing the general public themselves participate in and the waste that people put in the sea. Add to that the extremely powerful fishing lobby in the States and shark dive operators were always going to be up against it.
deco_martini
Contributor
There are several arguments I've seen made by JASA apologists:
1. everyone knows what they are getting into
(which i debate because you don't find out about this until you are in the "flipping through waivers" phase of purchase, and if you research the op you find poetic posts on this and other forums about how "safe" people felt and photos)
2. its advanced technical scuba
(which i debate because a 20 foot sandy bottom dive in clear, warm, current free water isn't very technical just because you have special instructions to stay still and not look like a turtle)
Neither of these arguments withstands the point that an 11 year old can't even sign a waiver without a guardian, isn't old enough to be considered a full diver by most agencies, and certainly isn't old enough to even train for real technical diving like cave diving.
I think there is something more thought provoking that having an 11 year old in the water or a 15 year old handling the bait crate brings to mind. People go on and on about how safe and tight an operation JASA runs despite doing a fundamentally unsafe activity. Here we see a true lapse in judgment on the part of the operator. I think this really reflects on the true safety mentality of JASA versus the perceived one.
If JASA is going to continue running these dives, I think they should at least stand by their "advanced" scuba claim and make an age limit appropriate for advanced diving.
deco_martini
Contributor
Real mountain climbers weren't amused when some operators started pocketing people's money to take them up everest. The idea being that someone who actually pays money to a McEverest operator obviously has no true grasp of the danger involved (or else they wouldn't be going). One of the operator's lost their life on one of those trips gone wrong and one of his customers lost their hands.
It is a heated discussion in the climbing community. Of course, we shouldn't be concerned with body counts for justifying unsafe behavior. I think it is an intellectual copout.
raymond phule
Contributor
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I am pretty sure this isn't true but I couldn't find the numbers. 1 out of 100 could be correct though.
Much more happend at the 96 disaster 1996 Everest Disaster - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
I dont believe climbers argue that the clients dont know the risks but argue against guiding people way above their real skill level up a dangerous climb. Climbers talk about the Everest circus.
you might want to get your facts straight. . . only the divemasters handle the bait crates.
Like its been said many times on this thread and others about this accident, if YOU don't think it is safe, then YOU don't have to do it. All but one of the guests that posted on these threads would do this trip again. Please just don't mess it up for those of us who do think JASA's trips are safe and would do it again. And YES, we DID know what we were getting into, by all the briefings. If YOU don't like it, then don't do it. Period. Maggi
TSherman
Contributor
If you dive with wild animals that are natural predators...you are in some danger, period. A shark big or small is something to respect.
I very much like to dive off the NC coast, and I am an avid spear fisher. Each time I enter the water and spear a fish I know if I want to keep my catch, it will be a bit of a fight. I usually make my own assumption of who has the "experience" to be around me when I do this. It may be fair, or unfair, but I wouldn't want their encounter to go bad. Bad part for me is that the Cobia seem to really like to be near the damn sharks too!
I have never been on a shark fed dive so to speak. I have run a business though and can only imagine that these people take all needed precations to make sure mishaps are kept to a minimum. For anyone to think they are safe is just absurd!!!!! They are sharks!!!!! They are by no means man eaters as some are made to believe, but they aren't gold fish either.
Its a shame for the sharks that mishaps happen. Each person "killed" by a shark is just so much worse for all of them. I would only hope that if I am killed being stupid and offering an easy meal at the end of my speargun that no one holds it against a shark. I would also hope that if I am bitten on a shark feed that the news media reports "Foolish diver forces hungry wild shark bite him with baited feed."
If you come to my dogs dinner bowl and he bites you, who is at fault? If you swim in the sharks baited dinner bowl, why is the shark at fault? I want to see that on the news.
I very much like to dive off the NC coast, and I am an avid spear fisher. Each time I enter the water and spear a fish I know if I want to keep my catch, it will be a bit of a fight. I usually make my own assumption of who has the "experience" to be around me when I do this. It may be fair, or unfair, but I wouldn't want their encounter to go bad. Bad part for me is that the Cobia seem to really like to be near the damn sharks too!
I have never been on a shark fed dive so to speak. I have run a business though and can only imagine that these people take all needed precations to make sure mishaps are kept to a minimum. For anyone to think they are safe is just absurd!!!!! They are sharks!!!!! They are by no means man eaters as some are made to believe, but they aren't gold fish either.
Its a shame for the sharks that mishaps happen. Each person "killed" by a shark is just so much worse for all of them. I would only hope that if I am killed being stupid and offering an easy meal at the end of my speargun that no one holds it against a shark. I would also hope that if I am bitten on a shark feed that the news media reports "Foolish diver forces hungry wild shark bite him with baited feed."
If you come to my dogs dinner bowl and he bites you, who is at fault? If you swim in the sharks baited dinner bowl, why is the shark at fault? I want to see that on the news.
MrBill_FTL
Registered
My point is, introducing FOOD is changing the shark behavior. don't introduce fish, just observer like whale watcher, no problem.
but if you add FOOD to the mix, you are teaching a new assocation for the sharks.
I'm still trying to get log/lat # for tiger beach (anyone?)
but this is what I found:
Meet us at the Old Bahama Bay Marina. We'll leave the dock bright and early for Tiger Beach. Travel time to the site is about 1 1/2 hours.
Tiger Beach was discovered in the late '80's by Captain Scott Smith. The area was referred to him by salvage divers who had found at least two different wrecks. These old wrecks are both within a half mile of each other in five to ten feet of water. There used to be cannons lying on the reef, but they are gone now. In certain spots you can still find cannon balls and lead shot.
This area has a shallow reef bar located a quarter mile from the deep water drop off. Lying inshore from the reef bar are more bars, some with sand that look like a beach. These bars are some of the shallowest bars around and make for a comfortable place to anchor at night. The reef bar makes for some excellent shallow snorkeling and diving. The south tip has some large ledges that Loggerhead turtles sleep under.
This half square mile area has been known for years as the Dry Bar. Recently it was renamed to Tiger Beach because it is a convenient and pretty place to feed Tiger Sharks. In the late '80s Captain Scott started fishing for Tiger Sharks in the area. He would wrangle these Tigers for photographers like James Watt and Jim Abernethy and film producers of the French film Atlantis. The Tigers would be in a state of hypoxemia then released unharmed.
this sounds like area between west end and walkers/grand... (yes/no?) - that area is mostly popular with local lobster divers, and since Walkers Cay closed, not too much else... (good place).
the thing is, say you have a nice popular reef, (off Lauderdale), and someone decides to chum for sharks every day for a year.... then they go out of business....
then lets say you pick up a dive book, and see a neet reef and decide to dive it... not knowing its the location of shark feedings... Oh, and you are taking your new diver friends with 3 dives... (and their family)...
get the point?
maybe tiger beach is on the banks, w/ no structure, or other reason to stop and dive. I don't know... but I do know where they, (dive operators) wanted, (were), doing shark dives off Ft Lauderdale... in 40' between 2nd and 3rd reef, in a normally dived area... ok, its not on the reef, but less than 1 mile from 2nd or 3rd reef, were lots of recreational divers visit.... year round...
-shark dives should be like whale watching... no bait! then, go have a ball!
JUST DONT TELL ME BAITING SHARKS DOESN'T AFFECT ME.
(lastly, how come no FL divers posting on this board? I will try spearboard for local comments...)
but if you add FOOD to the mix, you are teaching a new assocation for the sharks.
I'm still trying to get log/lat # for tiger beach (anyone?)
but this is what I found:
Meet us at the Old Bahama Bay Marina. We'll leave the dock bright and early for Tiger Beach. Travel time to the site is about 1 1/2 hours.
Tiger Beach was discovered in the late '80's by Captain Scott Smith. The area was referred to him by salvage divers who had found at least two different wrecks. These old wrecks are both within a half mile of each other in five to ten feet of water. There used to be cannons lying on the reef, but they are gone now. In certain spots you can still find cannon balls and lead shot.
This area has a shallow reef bar located a quarter mile from the deep water drop off. Lying inshore from the reef bar are more bars, some with sand that look like a beach. These bars are some of the shallowest bars around and make for a comfortable place to anchor at night. The reef bar makes for some excellent shallow snorkeling and diving. The south tip has some large ledges that Loggerhead turtles sleep under.
This half square mile area has been known for years as the Dry Bar. Recently it was renamed to Tiger Beach because it is a convenient and pretty place to feed Tiger Sharks. In the late '80s Captain Scott started fishing for Tiger Sharks in the area. He would wrangle these Tigers for photographers like James Watt and Jim Abernethy and film producers of the French film Atlantis. The Tigers would be in a state of hypoxemia then released unharmed.
this sounds like area between west end and walkers/grand... (yes/no?) - that area is mostly popular with local lobster divers, and since Walkers Cay closed, not too much else... (good place).
the thing is, say you have a nice popular reef, (off Lauderdale), and someone decides to chum for sharks every day for a year.... then they go out of business....
then lets say you pick up a dive book, and see a neet reef and decide to dive it... not knowing its the location of shark feedings... Oh, and you are taking your new diver friends with 3 dives... (and their family)...
get the point?
maybe tiger beach is on the banks, w/ no structure, or other reason to stop and dive. I don't know... but I do know where they, (dive operators) wanted, (were), doing shark dives off Ft Lauderdale... in 40' between 2nd and 3rd reef, in a normally dived area... ok, its not on the reef, but less than 1 mile from 2nd or 3rd reef, were lots of recreational divers visit.... year round...
-shark dives should be like whale watching... no bait! then, go have a ball!
JUST DONT TELL ME BAITING SHARKS DOESN'T AFFECT ME.
(lastly, how come no FL divers posting on this board? I will try spearboard for local comments...)
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