How does Nitrox work?

[offthewall1]

Now... What do you call that comment?

It would be a lot like me saying I had to go to Off the Wall Scuba because all the quality dive shops were closed. It serves no purpose other than being mean spirited and pushing your own agenda.

I call it ACCURATE

I have to ask... where in this thread was the shop/operation in question identified? Certainly not by me? In fact, I don't think it was at all.

And what exactly is my agenda? Keeping divers safe.

Stop acting as if you don't sleep with my competitors. I'm well aware of who you do work for. It is noted.

 

[Sas]

Second... I'll agree that stay thirsty had a choice - to dive with the fills or not to dive with the fills... and as someone rightfully stated - he could have just not dove, but why should he be forced to make that choice because some other idiot decided on their own to put the wrong gas in his tank? He did drive a a long way and paid for his diving... incompetence should not be allowed to ruin his vacation.

Having the attitude where you will not sit out a dive because you've paid a lot of money is a very dangerous attitude to have. If he was uncomfortable diving nitrox he should have never done the dive.

Now with that said... I agree that his girlfriend had little business being on those dives without proper training. He has had proper OW and Deep training... on AIR which by the way is all you need. I've dove NC more than 100 dives... all on air... and amazing isn't it - I'm still here.

All you need for what?

More importantly - the hiring and payment for a DM to lead them means they paid for professionals to lead them down there and back safely. It is a privately paid DM's job to understand the limitations of the divers and to lead them within those limits. Meaning if they are diving air - to make sure they stay within the no deco limits. Personal responsibility is for those of us who dive on our own. When you pay someone specifically to be responsble for your safety... I would argue that you're transferring some of that responsibility to the DM. This was arranged in advance and paid for. It was clear the girlfriend was not deep certified and it was also clear that both were diving air.

Again this is a very dangerous attitude to have - expecting a DM (or anybody else) to be responsible for your safety and therefore not worrying about looking after yourself. It is not going to be comforting to think "well I paid someone to look after me so I should've been ok" if you end up hurt or your girlfriend hurt/dead.

I can certainly understand the idea of giving them Nitrox - I'm not even saying it was a bad idea... I'm saying it was against agency standards, a violation of insurance standards, and potentially unsafe - as it gives the customers the idea that hey - we can dive nitrox without taking a class (which they certainly need to take to understand it.)

Well not everyone thinks that you need a cert card for everything. Nitrox is very simple and I knew enough to be diving nitrox safely before I did the course. It's not rocket science! So I do not think one necessarily needs to do a nitrox course (other than to fulfil agency standards or insurance standards) to dive safely with it.

 

[vladimir]

I call it ACCURATE

I have to ask... where in this thread was the shop/operation in question identified? Certainly not by me? In fact, I don't think it was at all.

And what exactly is my agenda? Keeping divers safe.

Stop acting as if you don't sleep with my competitors. I'm well aware of who you do work for. It is noted.

Keeping divers safe is a worthy goal. On other threads, you have certainly done a bit of self-promotion as well. There's nothing wrong with that, of course, but perhaps the best course of action is to recuse yourself from conversations about your competitors, especially those where you are critical. Just so that nobody doubts the purity of your motives.

 

[Stay Thirsty]

. "since taking this course i believe divers need to have an understanding of nitrox principles before diving with whatever mix they choose."



first i am not here to bash anyone at all! i just gave the facts of a story that people found hard to believe. the DM wasn't hired to be a lifeguard. lets face it diving in NC is no where near like diving in aruba or the bahamas. she has been on 100ft dives before with no problem so the depth was no concern to either of us. actually i wasn't even going to get one but having never really been wreck diving before she wanted one to kind of show us some cool stuff. and the last thing that convinced me to get a DM was advice from all of you guys on scuba board answering someone's question when they are wondering if they should use a DM when diving in NC for the first time. so thanks everyone for the advice next time i'll be sure not to follow it because i'll just get bashed in the end.

second i had a good time on my trip and the crew and divemaster all seemed like really good guys, and i learned a lot (which is important to me). second i can see offthewall1's point of view and DAaquamaster's point as well. DA aquamaster knew the principles and risks of diving with nitrox and i didn't at the time. why you ask? because DAaquamaster took a course and is nitrox certified and i didn't receive the training yet so i wasn't. did i feel like i was being set up for failure and certain death? NO! so i continued on with diving. are there other risks to be concerned about when diving nitrox? YES! which brings us back to the original question which started this thread which was "how does nitrox work?" the only point i am trying to make is in the quote above.

"I live on a one-way street that's also a dead end. I'm not sure how I got there." Steven Wright

 

[DA Aquamaster]

I call it ACCURATE.

Actually it isn't. I've never been in your shop but I have been exposed to a year or so of your often mean spirited posts and based on that, I still wouldn't go to your shop even if all the other shops were closed.

Your aggressive response to my suggestion that your comment regarding a certain boat captain was out of line, isn't helping to change the situation. A "maybe I was out of line" response may have.

Bashing others and alienating people is not how one becomes competitive in business.

 

[offthewall1]

Actually it isn't. I've never been in your shop but I have been exposed to a year or so of your often mean spirited posts and based on that, I still wouldn't go to your shop even if all the other shops were closed.

Your aggressive response to my suggestion that your comment regarding a certain boat captain was out of line, isn't helping to change the situation. A "maybe I was out of line" response may have.

Bashing others and alienating people is not how one becomes competitive in business.

Mean spirited posts? How so? Because they point out people who operate outside the rules? People who potentially endanger newbies? I could write a dissertation on some of this if you want to get me started. Newbies on this board have no idea what they're reading. Worse, when they go diving, they have no idea the danger they are often placed in by bad Captains, bad Instructors and bad DM's. Pardon me for not having a tolerance for it. If I save only one life - I'll accept all the bashing you want to bring on. Question my motives... tell everyone I'm self promoting... go ahead. The amazing thing is you don't even know me. You do however work for and know my competitors... who fill your head with bad karma because I beat them business wise around every corner... because I'm fighting to right the wrongs in the industry... fighting the manufacturers on behalf of consumers... etc...

I invite you to walk into my store, shake my hand and sit down and have a chat with me. Your eyes may become opened. That is unless you choose to keep them closed.

Every post I make is accurate, well thought out and on point. Yours are also often on point and accurate... as it is possible for two people to disagree and both have valid points... as stay thirsty has so eloquently pointed out in his last post.

If anyone is bashing anyone it is you - with post like the one quoted here. I will continue to point out the errors of those who are operating outside the rules (especially safety.) As an Instructor and Dive Store owner, that is my responsibility to my industry - and I take that seriously.

You on the other hand roam freely - able to break the rules and tell others they're OK... immune to repurcussion as you hide behind your Scubaboard name. Everyone knows who I am... and I have no problem stamping my name and face all over my posts... I will always back up and stand behind what I say.

(pertaining specifically to our market area)
If you shop anywhere else - you pay to much (we beat internet pricing everyday!)... if you shop anywhere else - you don't receive the same level of customer service (who else hands you a new one {of anything} when you walk in with a broken one?)... if you shop somewhere else - you don't receive the personalized training (one-on-one training at group class pricing)... if you shop somewhere else - you simply miss the boat.... and if you want to pay more... get less customer service and cattle boat training... I say go for it.

Self promotion on this one? Absolutely - Why not?... you opened the door when you said you wouldn't come here even if all the other shops were closed. I invite everyone to make that decision for themselves...

 

[ScubaSteve]

Actually it isn't. I've never been in your shop but I have been exposed to a year or so of your often mean spirited posts and based on that, I still wouldn't go to your shop even if all the other shops were closed.

Your aggressive response to my suggestion that your comment regarding a certain boat captain was out of line, isn't helping to change the situation. A "maybe I was out of line" response may have.

Bashing others and alienating people is not how one becomes competitive in business.

+1 here

 

[boulderjohn]

I guess I am totally confused about the point of the story of the 30% nitrox. I don't see what the actions of that particular shop, regardless of the degree of responsibility/irresponsibility has to do with the purpose of this thread. Perhaps someone with greater insight than I can explain it to me.

 

[sam1]

Extended bottom times are a theory for most recreational divers. What I mean by that is diving Nitrox within recreational limits may allow you to stay down longer - but usually you'll run out of air before reaching the full benefit of diving Nitrox - purely as an increase of bottom time.

I saw this thread a couple of weeks ago but only now have had a chance to post. I admit that I have not read the other 13 pages of posts!

I prepared the attached graph to show what constraints were binding on a dive: the "air" constraint (how much gas you have) versus the (so-called) no decompression limits for air, EAN32, and EAN36. As you can see in the graph, a diver with a SAC of 0.50 (w/ an AL 80 [77.4 cf]) diving 60 feet or less will be constrained by air available rather than by the NDL. For such dives, Nitrox would not extend bottom times. For this diver, the maximum benefit of Nitrox (assuming EAN32) would occur in the 71-80 foot range, where it would increase bottom time by 11 to 14 minutes. For me, as a "person of maturity," I dive Nitrox as if it were air for extra safety margin rather than to extend bottom time.

 

[DA Aquamaster]

Sam, cool graph.

The issue generating all the debate is a guy diving 30% rather than Air with a 110 ft hard bottom on dive one with perhaps an 80-100 ft bottom on dive 2.

Rework the example with Air and with 30% at 110 ft for a guy with a 117 cu ft tank.

Then run it again for a second dive to 90 ft after a 90 minute surface interval again with a 117 cu ft tank.

The question at hand is largely one of situational ethics. Does a boat captain/instructor excercise better judgment by having the diver dive on air along side a boat load of people diving 30%, incurring a greater chance of a decompression situation as he is deco limited.

Or does he excercise better judgment by having the diver use 30% to gain a greater NDL and essentially gas limit the diver even though the diver is not nitrox certified (but cannot exceed the MOD and will not exceed the O2 exposure limits).