How does Nitrox work?

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OK... so now we've heard from the man himself...

I think he made his point quite clear...

Anyone of you who is an Instructor, Dive store owner, Dive Master etc... should be reported to your agency, insurance company etc... if you're out there dispensing Nitrox to uncertified (Nitrox) divers. To think or try to make a point otherwise only shows your complete ignorance and disdain for dive safety.
Let's use our brains and think about it for a minute rather than spouting some general PADI or SSI standard. The captain gave the diver in question a rental tank of 30% and either topped off his other tank with Nitrox - giving a mix of perhaps 25-26% - or drained and refilled his tank with 30% and told him to dive both as if he was on air.

The important thing here is that he did not also give him a shovel as he clearly would have needed one to exceed the MOD of either gas as the boat captain in question new the depths where he was taking the divers and both dives would have been well above the 120' MOD at a 1.4 PPO2. NC does not have wall dives, at least there, so the presence of a flat bottom with a hard sand depth limit makes a difference. The same thing would not be safe on a wall dive, but in this case the MOD was clearly not a safety issue that day or on that trip.

Also, even had they been able to dive to a depth allowing a MOD of 1.4 for the mix used for the entire time on both dives, the single dive CNS limit is 150 minutes and the 24 hour limit is 180 minutes and the maximum time on those would be around 40-45 minutes max from a gas perspective - well within both the single dive limit and perhaps 50% of the CNS clock.

Now look at it in light of the entire situation... The capatain had a boat load of divers who were all on the bottom with 30% in a situation where they are all pushing NDL's. The diver in question and his sig other, were obviously fairly new divers. It does not take much to imagine a scenario where they enjoy NC diving at its best, get distracted and just come up when everyone else starts coming up - but bent like pretzles as they were, unlike everyone else, on air.

So you can look at it from two points of view:

1) A dogmatic, authoritarian point of view where PADI, SSI, etc says "though shalt not dive nitrox without at least our on-line cert" (where God himself only knows who actually helped the student with the parts that almost require math), or,

2) A much more pragmatic and intelligent cost/benefit analysis where the captain actually thinks about the welfare of the diver and considers the risks of diving nitrox (zero in this case for the reasons discussed above) versus the very real risk of the reasonably new diver screwing up and getting bent on air while in the water with a boat load of nitrox.

From that perspective what the captain did was exactly the right thing to do - he gave nitrox fills to ensure as large an NDL as possible and instructed the diver to just dive it like he was diving air - something he knew how to do - adding a large margin of safety if the diver actually monitored his bottom time and still ensuring he was not at an NDL disadvantage compared to other divers if he did not. When you further consider the diver also also had 117's (enough gas to get you in serious deco trouble on air in NC) the captain's decision makes perfect sense.

And essentially "screw PADI" is the right decision for a boat captain to make in this type of situation as PADI is not the controlling legal authority. PADI rules and stadnards will not mean squat compared to the coast guard legal laws and regulations the captain is held accountable to. He is the person responsible for everything that occurs on board and if the diver got bent or died, the coast guard investigators looking into the accident would have at least questioned why he let the diver dive on air in the first place, when there was no real risk of diving nitrox in this situation and given that nitrox is the common gas in NC wreck diving in the 80-120ft range. It is common for laws and standards to come in conflict and when those ethical conflicts between standards occurs an intelligent and well considered solution is required - which is exactly what he did in this case. More importantly in this case, his responsibilities as a boat captain clearly over shadowed his responsibilies as an "everyone can be one in about 2 weeks" PADI or SSI instructor.

So from a ethical perspective based on science, thinking and experience rather than just dogma, one that looks at all the risks, benefits and probable outcomes, the captain did exactly the right thing which is one of the reason he is one of my favorite boat captains. Given that actuaries look at probability and risk and have similar decision making processes, I am sure they'd be just fine with his decisions that day. Let's not miss the more important point that it is well within the realm of probability that he kept a diver from getting bent that day and the diver in question needs to recognize that.

Then there is personal responsibility. The divers in question did not have to dive. The captain did not make them walk the plank and force them to dive. Obviously, they were not worried about it at the time (nor did they need to be) and equally obviously they both survived - but that issue was never in doubt was it?

Now, the captain could have just said "no" and not let him dive at all without a nitrox cert, but that would have screwed the diver with hotel, travel expenses, wasted weekend, etc and there was no need for him to impose that on the diver when a simple and safe resoultion to the problem was available. In fact if he had, many of the people on SB would all be bashing the boat captain for doing that, blissfully ignoring the significant risk that the diver in question may have gotten himself bent if he had used air, and blissfuly ignorant of the captain's larger responsibility to ensure safe conduct of the trip.

If, as a professional you want to bash another professional, get your **** together and make sure your arguments and accusations actually make sense before you start questioning their judgement or slandering them.

----

Stay Thirsty - welcome to Scubaboard!

Glad to have you and I hope you stay around for more than just this issue. Just be advised that in addition to lots of good advice, there is all kinds of bad or poorly thought out information out there - both on and off the board.
 
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sorry to get in the thread so late. yes i can say this story is valid because i'm the customer in this story. no i will not put the charter boat out there but i can tell you they run out of Atlantic Beach, NC. before going on the trip i called and asked what certifications my girlfriend and i needed to dive, i told them we were not nitrox certified, and i told them we wanted a dive master because my girlfriend was nervous and didnt want to dive unfamiliar waters with it being just us. i was told we were certified to go and there would be no problems.

i was using steel 117's filled with regular air and having my computer set (default) to use regular air (i was the only one not using nitrox) and she rented tanks which they filled with 30% nitrox only. we only did one dive because my divebuddy was seasick and didnt want to do another dive. when the 1st day was done i had 1 full tank of air and 1empty tank so i told the divemaster and captain (who ran the trip and did the air refills) i need a tank refill of regular air and when i told them that they said ok but they were stunned to hear i was diving on air. well i wasn't because i dove 110ft before on air and lived to tell about it.

the next day we did 2 dives. they gave her nitrox when i showed up to the boat the told me they filled up my tank with 30% nitrox (i was a little pissed about that) then the rented me another tank od the same mix and they said even though i wasn't certified, "it would be ok. just dont set your computer to the mix. dive as if you were using regular air." (which i didn't know how to do. i didn't know anything about PO2 or MOD because i wasn't certified) i took the other nitrox tank because i wasn't sure if changing air on the same dive would have a negative effect. we both dove the second day to a bottom depth of 110ft again and everything went well. at the end of the day they offered us to take a nitrox course to get certified for $50.00 but if i didn't want to take it then i could just get certified online.

now that i am taking the course and it seems like there's a lot more you as a diver need to be aware of, or divemaster should be aware of then to just be telling people they will be ok. since taking this course i believe divers need to have an understanding of nitrox principles before diving with whatever mix they choose.

"I live on a one-way street that's also a dead end. I'm not sure how I got there." Steven Wright

Nitrox issues aside ... if you need a divemaster because your girlfriend is nervous about the dive, you have no business going to 110 feet in the first place.

You placed her ... and yourself ... in far more danger of a diving injury by relying on someone else for your safety than you EVER did by diving EAN30 to that depth without training.

I agree that you shouldn't be diving nitrox without training, but this whole conversation sounds amazingly like the misinformation campaign of the late '80's and early '90's.

And since offthewall1 is your friend ... and probably your scuba instructor ... it seems to me that he's missed the bigger picture altogether. Bringing a nervous girlfriend to those depths simply isn't a very safe thing to do.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
the next day we did 2 dives. they gave her nitrox when i showed up to the boat the told me they filled up my tank with 30% nitrox (i was a little pissed about that) then the rented me another tank od the same mix and they said even though i wasn't certified, "it would be ok. just dont set your computer to the mix. dive as if you were using regular air." (which i didn't know how to do. i didn't know anything about PO2 or MOD because i wasn't certified) i took the other nitrox tank because i wasn't sure if changing air on the same dive would have a negative effect. we both dove the second day to a bottom depth of 110ft again and everything went well. at the end of the day they offered us to take a nitrox course to get certified for $50.00 but if i didn't want to take it then i could just get certified online.

now that i am taking the course and it seems like there's a lot more you as a diver need to be aware of, or divemaster should be aware of then to just be telling people they will be ok. since taking this course i believe divers need to have an understanding of nitrox principles before diving with whatever mix they choose.
I agree with everybody who thinks that you should be nitrox educated before you dive nitrox. Kind of obvious. (I'd go one step further and say that every diver should be nitrox educated.) I also agree, obviously, with those who point out that doing the dives you did with the mix you used entailed no added risk--they were at least as safe as if you'd dived air.

I am confused by the bolded statement above. You didn't know how to "not set your computer to the mix"? You didn't know how to "dive as if you were using regular air"?
 
We are still missing a fair amount of information, but it is starting to become obvious that the boat dive in question is one of those cases were nitrox has a huge advantage.

It may also be that the dive master they sent with them is actually an instructor.. which would make a bit of difference.

The points that NW and DA make are pretty valid...particularly if someone shows up with a 117 tank. Most people can go way into deco at that depth on air (assuming a normal SAC rate) using that size tank...

Odd though, that the example of what is wrong with nitrox is one where using nitrox has a trememdous advantage...not sure I understand why that was used, other that to point out how bad the shop was (which would seem better done person to person).



Also, a $50 nitrox course is a steal.....
 
Odd though, that the example of what is wrong with nitrox is one where using nitrox has a trememdous advantage...not sure I understand why that was used, other that to point out how bad the shop was (which would seem better done person to person).
It doesn't matter how bad the shop was ... that's irrelevant! The point is that if you KNOW they're doing something you're not comfortable with ... in this case, insisting that you dive a mix you're not trained for ... it's YOUR responsiblity to maintain your own safety.

In this case ... since the diver knew what mix was in the tank ... the right decision would've been to either insist on a mix YOU want, or don't do the dive. The WRONG thing to do is to go ahead and do the dive in a circumstance you're uncomfortable with.

People complaining about a divemaster or dive shop endangering them are missing the point of diving ... which is completely about personal responsibility. If a diver didn't take at least that much away from their OW class, then their instructor did a poor job of training them.


Also, a $50 nitrox course is a steal.....
I charge $150 ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
I charge $150 ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
I wouldn't even compare, Bob. I have trimix certs, and would still get more than my $150.00 worth from any class you teach on any subject. It's not comparing apples and oranges, it's more like comparing a raisin to a fresh fruit basket. You are not the typical instructor.
 
Let's use our brains and think
Then there is personal responsibility. The divers in question did not have to dive. The captain did not make them walk the plank and force them to dive. Obviously, they were not worried about it at the time (nor did they need to be) and equally obviously they both survived - but that issue was never in doubt was it?

Now, the captain could have just said "no" and not let him dive at all without a nitrox cert, but that would have screwed the diver with hotel, travel expenses, wasted weekend, etc and there was no need for him to impose that on the diver when a simple and safe resoultion to the problem was available. In fact if he had, many of the people on SB would all be bashing the boat captain for doing that, blissfully ignoring the significant risk that the diver in question may have gotten himself bent if he had used air, and blissfuly ignorant of the captain's larger responsibility to ensure safe conduct of the trip.

If, as a professional you want to bash another professional, get your **** together and make sure your arguments and accusations actually make sense before you start questioning their judgement or slandering them.

First... It is hardly slander to state a fact. They had NO BUSINESS filling an air request with Nitrox - regardless of the reason.

Second... I'll agree that stay thirsty had a choice - to dive with the fills or not to dive with the fills... and as someone rightfully stated - he could have just not dove, but why should he be forced to make that choice because some other idiot decided on their own to put the wrong gas in his tank? He did drive a a long way and paid for his diving... incompetence should not be allowed to ruin his vacation.

He only went with them because all the quality options were full.

Now with that said... I agree that his girlfriend had little business being on those dives without proper training. He has had proper OW and Deep training... on AIR which by the way is all you need. I've dove NC more than 100 dives... all on air... and amazing isn't it - I'm still here.

More importantly - the hiring and payment for a DM to lead them means they paid for professionals to lead them down there and back safely. It is a privately paid DM's job to understand the limitations of the divers and to lead them within those limits. Meaning if they are diving air - to make sure they stay within the no deco limits. Personal responsibility is for those of us who dive on our own. When you pay someone specifically to be responsble for your safety... I would argue that you're transferring some of that responsibility to the DM. This was arranged in advance and paid for. It was clear the girlfriend was not deep certified and it was also clear that both were diving air.

I can certainly understand the idea of giving them Nitrox - I'm not even saying it was a bad idea... I'm saying it was against agency standards, a violation of insurance standards, and potentially unsafe - as it gives the customers the idea that hey - we can dive nitrox without taking a class (which they certainly need to take to understand it.)

The three of you who continue to argue it was OK... are out in left field... and you know you just like to go against anything I say... so have it until your faces turn blue.

Bottom line... it shouldn't have happened - and YOU KNOW IT.
 
First... It is hardly slander to state a fact. They had NO BUSINESS filling an air request with Nitrox - regardless of the reason.

Second... I'll agree that stay thirsty had a choice - to dive with the fills or not to dive with the fills... and as someone rightfully stated - he could have just not dove, but why should he be forced to make that choice because some other idiot decided on their own to put the wrong gas in his tank? He did drive a a long way and paid for his diving... incompetence should not be allowed to ruin his vacation.

He only went with them because all the quality options were full.

Now with that said... I agree that his girlfriend had little business being on those dives without proper training. He has had proper OW and Deep training... on AIR which by the way is all you need. I've dove NC more than 100 dives... all on air... and amazing isn't it - I'm still here.

More importantly - the hiring and payment for a DM to lead them means they paid for professionals to lead them down there and back safely. It is a privately paid DM's job to understand the limitations of the divers and to lead them within those limits. Meaning if they are diving air - to make sure they stay within the no deco limits. Personal responsibility is for those of us who dive on our own. When you pay someone specifically to be responsble for your safety... I would argue that you're transferring some of that responsibility to the DM. This was arranged in advance and paid for. It was clear the girlfriend was not deep certified and it was also clear that both were diving air.
That's pretty convoluted logic. So it's OK to take someone who's not trained for deep diving on a deep dive ... but it's NOT OK to take someone who's not trained for nitrox on a nitrox dive?

She's nervous about going ... so you hire someone else to "keep her safe"?

That goes against just about every principle of responsible diving I'm aware of. She was FAR more likely to hurt herself due to stressing out about a dive she wasn't ready to do than she was by making some leap of logic about the breathing as she was using.

Focus on the big picture here ... they should've simply declined to do the dive. As their instructor, I can't believe you're rationalizing why they didn't.

I can certainly understand the idea of giving them Nitrox - I'm not even saying it was a bad idea... I'm saying it was against agency standards, a violation of insurance standards, and potentially unsafe - as it gives the customers the idea that hey - we can dive nitrox without taking a class (which they certainly need to take to understand it.)

The three of you who continue to argue it was OK... are out in left field... and you know you just like to go against anything I say... so have it until your faces turn blue.
I don't see anyone arguing that it was OK ... I see people saying that, under the circumstances, they weren't in any real danger.

Personally, I don't believe in fear-mongering on issues like this. Give people the facts, and assume they're bright enough to make up their own minds.

I agree that people who aren't trained to do certain types of dives shouldn't do those dives ... because ignorance can kill you. But this isn't a good example of the point you're trying to make ... because you're missing the bigger issue. It's like getting so focused on not tripping over a tree root that you don't notice that the tree is about to fall over on your head.

Bottom line... it shouldn't have happened - and YOU KNOW IT.
I agree with that ... but the diver really needs to take more responsibility for deciding to do the dive, even though he KNEW he was going to be using a gas he wasn't trained for.

I train my divers differently ... there's always another day to dive. And no dive is worth taking those kind of risks for.

FWIW - I've opted out on dives I paid a lot of money for. I KNOW how hard it is. But it STILL boils down to personal responsibility.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)
 
Another quick point - then I'll leave it alone.

We've all done a dive here or there (at least those of us that have been diving awhile) where we've looked back and thought to ourselves, that wasn't the smartest thing I could have done.

I know that Stay Thirsty has come to that realization in this case - and I think in the end... that's all that matters here.
 
He only went with them because all the quality options were full.
Now... What do you call that comment?

It would be a lot like me saying I had to go to Off the Wall Scuba because all the quality dive shops were closed. It serves no purpose other than being mean spirited and pushing your own agenda.
 

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