How do experienced divers define "What is Advanced Diving?"

[MauiScubaSteve]

I'm going to do something here that I rarely do, that is explicitly put on by Board Guide hat

There are a few points that I'd like to make:

Halemano asked that people restrict themselves to responding according to certain criteria. This is done every now and again, and quite often people ignore the criteria, and for that matter the questions, but stay close enough to the theme to not really qualify for being off topic.

There is not a whole lot the we can expect of the Mods in this sort of a circumstance, even if it were a legitimate thing to police, one such thread (not to mention three) would consume a huge amount of what is, in reality, volunteer time.

I don't think that we want to set a precedent that a member should be restricted from providing input on any forum to which they have access...especially if it isn't against TOS. Where the Mods to try to do that here eventually communication will break down as more and more threads start with explicit instructions like 'Former University Diving Safety Officers who live in Hawaii, whose user names begin with the letter T should not comment in the thread. Now that would make me very grumpy.

So try to show Halemano's requests some respect and, hopefully, he will understand that discussions often slip off into alternate and unplanned directions. I think that is one of the beauties of ScubaBoard.

Here's to "beautiful" alternate and unplanned directions! :thumbs_up:

 

[*dave*]

I never really thought about it, but I suppose I do consider myself an advanced diver. I can only base that assessment on how my skills, knowledge and experience compare to other divers which I would expect to be advanced. Master Instructor, DCSI, IT, IC are all ratings which would ideally be held by advanced divers.

"Advanced" is a relative term these days, it seems.

 

[freewillie]

After having jumped back and forth between beginner Basic Scuba Discussions and Advanced Scuba Discussions I'm not quite sure where I should be responding. Basic Scuba criteria was 100+ dives need to be in Advance. I'm clearly not there. But, here cut off was <50 but now I'm thinking I know my skills are beyond basic but not advanced.

My gut reaction is I'm going to call myself and "advanced" diver for the following reason: if I was to sign up for a dive boat I would feel comfortable in some of the advance rated dive spots. I would feel comfortable in 120 feet water, or conversely would feel comfortable on a wall with no bottom. I've had to deal with less than ideal conditions and have learned from those experiences. I can hold my position on a safety stop without holding the line unless there is a current. I can plan my dive, dive my plan, use a compass underwater navigation, stay with my buddy in low viz and in less than ideal conditions. So, if the dive site is not beginner and requires "advanced" skills I do feel like I would not be out of place. I know might be naive of me but that's why I'm posting here.

The interesting thing is in Basic Scuba Discussions many of the divers don't have as many dives, may not have gone 100 feet, still fin with their hands to maintain position. All of the above would seem "advanced." But here, many of you are well over 100+ dives with some even 1000+. You must be looking at me with some sort of "what is this guy this guy smoking and does he really think that much of his skills?"

So, back to number of dives. Do we log our dives to say we have "x" dives and then we magically cross the thresholds from newbie to beginner to advanced to tech? Some of us get the skills on the first dive, some of us require multiple dives to master the same skill. I've noticed that some have included advanced tech diving like cave diving and wreck penetration skills in their definition of general advanced diving. I guess that is the point of this thread, to assess the wide range of opinions as to what the threshold is that separates basic from advanced.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Bob evidently turns that into "halemano chased a poor basic diver out of the Basic Scuba Discussions forum," perhaps due to some sub-conscious "demonize halemano fixation."

Actually, I never mentioned your name at all ... nor even implied it. I responded to what the man wrote ... and attempted to give him some criteria to work with.

So who's spreading lies? And who's being the bully? I think it's you.

So, please answer the question in the proper forum; the question is slightly different in each different forum; this question is for those who have not got there yet (100+ dives)

By your own criteria ... at less than 50 dives, he has not got there yet ...

I truly don't understand your penchant for rudeness and name-calling.

But if you'll stop attacking me, I'll stop responding to your unpleasantness ... there really are more constructive ways to communicate with people.

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[vladimir]

I did wake up one morning and find that the rest of the world thought me an expert, and after some years of that I learned to go along, if just out of habit.

Does anyone else think that it probably took Thal less than "some years" to think of himself as an expert, and that there was no great internal struggle involved?

 

[AfterDark]

I don’t know what an advanced diver is. After almost 40 years and almost 2000 dives in cold, warm, clear, murky, deep, calm and rough water from shore and boats; spearfishing, ice, night, solo, wreck including penetration and deco diving I call myself an experienced and confident diver. That didn’t just happen it is a long evolution that continues to this day.

 

[Jax]

So, back to number of dives. Do we log our dives to say we have "x" dives and then we magically cross the thresholds from newbie to beginner to advanced to tech? Some of us get the skills on the first dive, some of us require multiple dives to master the same skill. I've noticed that some have included advanced tech diving like cave diving and wreck penetration skills in their definition of general advanced diving. I guess that is the point of this thread, to assess the wide range of opinions as to what the threshold is that separates basic from advanced.

The problem with logged dives is that the dive community is looking for some way to classify the skills of people they don't know.

Showing one's logbook would make sense, but just listing the amount of dives can be misleading.

Let's say someone took course after course, and the majority of his/her dives were in training. So, the diver has 200 dives, but the experience is "a mile wide and an inch deep".

On the opposite extreme, is the diver that has 200 dives in the local quarry. In this case, the diver's experience is "an inch wide and a mile deep".

IMO, if a diver with 200 dives jumps into a drysuit for the first time, s/he just went back to basic beginner.


Now, I know of a diver that called himself a tech diver, because he dove doubles and had a tech class. Yet, when his mask was knocked off by a newbie, he panicked. The ascent was from shallow, Thank God. I would not call this diver advanced, simply because he didn't practice the basics. He had in excess of 200 dives, tho.

 

[gsk3]

To answer the question, I don't consider myself "Advanced" at all, and think the title's somewhat meaningless. I'm comfortable doing the dives I do. In other contexts, I accept that I may be surprised by things I've never experienced. Perfect vis, the few times I've experienced it, makes me a bit uncomfortable, for instance--I'm just used to having particulates around to judge motion.

Consider an alternate question. What do I consider to be an advanced driver?
- Someone who has been driving for 25 years. So from this perspective, maybe.
- What if this person hasn't been instructed on driving cars in race tracks? With my many years of driving around, he could probably take an SUV to a race track and drive it really fast and not have an accident. Maybe the trained racers will tell him that he is foolish for driving on race track with the wrong equipment with insufficient training. Even the properly trained and equipped teenage racer who has only had a driver's license for a couple of years might consider me foolish. (And he would probably be right.) So from this perspective, maybe not.
- But even if he had training in racing cars, what if he doesn't have training in driving commercials vehicles - buses, big rigs, whatever. So even if he had both of the above, still maybe not.
- But even if he had all that training and experience listed above, he still probably would struggle to drive in the streets of Ho Chi Minh city. Ref: Part 2 of 3D Driving in Ho Chi Minh City, Vietnam - YouTube

I think the driver analogy makes the context-dependence of "advanced" pretty clear (a dependence which Lynne also illustrated nicely). Continuing the analogy, there's a difference between the circumstances/goals of a drive, the means by which those goals are attained, and the context-specific experience of the driver.

If the goal is to drive 120mph around a banked racetrack, the means could be an SUV, a race car, or an (unloaded) semi. The driver's past experience could be minimal (a 16-year-old kid who's rapidly become proficient in handling their Honda Civic), extensive in this context (race car driver), or extensive in another context (commercial driver).

Now mix and match and decide who's safest: 16-year-old in the race car? Commercial driver in the semi? Commercial driver in the race car?

To me, the clear answer is that the race car driver in the race car is the safest. After that, I'd argue the commercial driver in the race car is much safer than the commercial driver in the semi. Any relevance to the deep air or "non-technical deep advanced recreational diver" debate is entirely coincidental--remember folks, this is about driving.

And that's before nature throws in any complications (all of a sudden a birthday party unleashes hundreds of go-karts onto the track!).

This thread seems to be about separating out "advanced" (e.g. race car driver and commercial driver) from "beginner" (16-year-old), but it's asking people to self-report (e.g. the 16-year-old would say they're advanced too) and assuming there's such a thing as context-independent "advanced." I think there's some skills transfer across categories, but part of being "advanced" is recognizing when you need to back it off a few notches--either because you haven't done those dives in a while, because you're not in the physical shape you need to be, or because it's a new context for you. In short, it's less about skills than wisdom. Driving is extensively studied, and in general what 16-year-olds lack is not the ability to quickly and precisely jerk the steering wheel but the judgment to not get behind the wheel in the first place, not drive too fast for the road conditions, and not equate unnecessary risk with fun.

 

[DCBC]

OK you advanced scuba divers; looking into your past, when did you think you had earned the title "advanced diver?" If you have ~1,000 or more dives, when do you now think you were "advanced?"

If I understand the question correctly...

I believe I considered myself to be an "advanced diver" when I:

- did not feel any apprehension using my equipment underwater;
- clearly understood my safety envelope and recognized the importance of diving within it;
- could look at a dive site and know when conditions dictated me to walk away;
- could comfortably thumb a dive when conditions warranted (before it was too late);
- could properly control my buoyancy;
- could accurately plan a dive and project my gas consumption (in consideration of planned duration, depth and diving conditions);
- was exposed to a number of diving environments and conditions (ocean, fresh water, altitude, overheads, waves/currents, poor visibility).

This is not to say that someone who hasn't met these conditions isn't an "advanced diver." It's just that I considered myself to be an advanced diver when these conditions had been met. It wasn't a line in the sand that I could prepare for, rather a realization that was made after the fact. I have never thought that an "advanced diver" was achieved through a specified number of dives, or any recreational training program.

 

[DiveNav]

.......OK you advanced scuba divers; looking into your past, when did you think you had earned the title "advanced diver?"........

I became an Advanced Virtual Diver when I successfully dove "The Choke" (max depth 633ft, using a rebreather with 3 diluents).
In real life .... I just try to enjoy my dives and - more important - come back uninjured.

Alberto (aka eDiver)