Hotel Cozumel

[pilot fish]

I think you've missed the point pilot fish.

Agency standards are so much more complex than the level on the card regardless of the agency.

Bottom line is that an AOW card, whether from SSI, PADI, NAUI, CMAS, YMCA, FEMA, etc. does NOT mean anything as far as skill level assessment. Whether you have 25 dives or 125 dives, I (we = operators) still want you to demonstrate your ability in these conditions if you've never dove with us before. I've seen divemaster certified divers with 150 dives that I wouldn't trust to be my dive buddy on Paradise reef much less Punta Sur. I am more encouraged now than ever to post a dedicated discussion on skill level and the definition of same.

Certification level on your card (regardless of agency) offers you the right to prove that you've spent more money on your dive education that John Doe. The reality/proof that you are a good/better/best diver is totally up to you.


SHOW us, don't TELL us!

I don't think I missed the point. My point is, you should not get the card unless you achieve some reasonable standard of diving competency. Giving someone an AOW card with just a few dives defeats the purpose of the card, [show some level of EXPERIENCE], and renders the card meaningless, no matter the issuing agency. Wouldn't it make it more authentic to only issue the card to people with more than 50 dives minimum, lets say, and then do al the things that are necessary for that level?

 

[pilot fish]

Loud applause!

And a good diver doesn't arrive knowing everything there is to know...a good diver listens to the "locals"!

A card, DM, AOW, or even OW, SHOULD be SOME indication of experience level for the card to mean anything at all. Just like you would not give a nitrox tank to a non nitrox rated diver. If you see that person is rated as nitrox you let him have that tank. See? It has to be SOME indication of experience level. A fair question is, when was the last time you dove, no matter what your card says.

 

[Len]

Yes, I've seen that. There really ought to be a 50 dive minimum to be able to go for AOW cert. I got my AOW after 85 dives. I've seen AOW cert while they are getting their OW cert. make no sense. :06:

In my opinion, it is the "A" in AOW that is misleading. If the certs were called OW1 and OW2 there would be less concern about when you took the course and how many dives you had. We (wife and I) took AOW immediately following OW simply because we felt OW training did not provide the confidence level to head out on our own. I look at AOW as simply extended training. I would do the same thing again. Makes sense to me.

 

[pilot fish]

In my opinion, it is the "A" in AOW that is misleading. If the certs were called OW1 and OW2 there would be less concern about when you took the course and how many dives you had. We (wife and I) took AOW immediately following OW simply because we felt OW training did not provide the confidence level to head out on our own. I look at AOW as simply extended training. I would do the same thing again. Makes sense to me.

Point well taken. Yes, it is the A that is misleading. It, the Advanced part of the cert, should mean that, more than Basic, and show a bit more experience level than basic OW. When you can get your AOW card while, or shortly after, OW cert, with only a few more dives, it does diminish its significance. I think a rule that you should have 50 minimum dives before you can apply for the AOW card is reasonable. OW1 or OW2 works too. It should mean SOMETHING.

 

[dnhill]

A card, DM, AOW, or even OW, SHOULD be SOME indication of experience level for the card to mean anything at all. Just like you would not give a nitrox tank to a non nitrox rated diver. If you see that person is rated as nitrox you let him have that tank. See? It has to be SOME indication of experience level. A fair question is, when was the last time you dove, no matter what your card says.

I think the distinction is between experience and competency. To use an employment analogy, I have employees that have 10 years of experience and others with one year of experience 10 times.

I took my AOW with less than 100 dives. What it accomplished was that it was a complete review of the things I should have known from OW, plus new knowledge. It was a structured program. I could have learned just as much by having the instructor work with me and not in a formal AOW course.

I also learn from other divers all of the time. The more I know about anything, the more I realize I have only scratched the surface of learning.

dnhill

 

[pilot fish]

I think the distinction is between experience and competency. To use an employment analogy, I have employees that have 10 years of experience and others with one year of experience 10 times.

I took my AOW with less than 100 dives. What it accomplished was that it was a complete review of the things I should have known from OW, plus new knowledge. It was a structured program. I could have learned just as much by having the instructor work with me and not in a formal AOW course.

I also learn from other divers all of the time. The more I know about anything, the more I realize I have only scratched the surface of learning.

dnhill

I took my AOW with 85 dives, more than 50, as you did, which I think should be the standard. Taking AOW WHILE you go for OW cert makes no sense. I, too, learn more from other divers, by talking to them, and observing, than I did with my AOW course. That said, I've seen many many divers with OW, cert and tons of dive experience,that I would prefer to dive with than the AOW diver with NO, or LITTLE experience

 

[Christi]

You make some good points pilot fish and I understand your viewpoint better now.

Since I am a PADI instructor, I can only really speak for the PADI AOW course. With that said, all of my AOW course references are for the PADI program.

I agree that the "Advanced" in the AOW certification is misleading and I think the name of the card should be changed. The PADI program is actually called "Adventures in Diving" but the card issued is "Advanced Open Water". Even PADI does not consider this an "Advanced" certification in the terms so many people think about it. In the context of this course, it simply means expanding your dive education. It is designed to be fun and informative, not challenging.

I do not think it is pointless to take this course immediately following an open water certification because as Len and Duane said, it does provide a review of what you should have learned in OW training and provides additional knowledge and training in a structured/supervised environment. It is not designed to make one an "advanced" diver. The AOW course for example, is nothing more than an introduction to five different specialty areas. The point is to introduce divers to these specialties and show them the different opportnities they have to expand their diving education in the future in areas that interest them.

When I certify AOW students who are new and not very experienced, I make it very clear to them that having this card does not necessarily make them an "advanced" diver. Only time underwater and experience can do that.

Again, the number of logged dives an individual may have is also a very arbitrary number in some ways. For example, someone could have 50 logged dives, but they haven't been in the water for 10 years. Or, someone could have 100 dives that they have logged over the last 10 years.

Another person could have 50 dives that they have logged over the past month. This person is more likely to be more comfortable and "advanced" in the water than the once a year vacation diver. This is not a bad thing, it is a simple fact. Some people are simply more involved in diving than others. Some go through regulator withdrawals after a few weeks, some are happy to dive a few days a year on vacation.

To give a little perspective. I do not dive everyday, but I log anywhere from 200-400+ dives per year. Divemasters here log in the neighborhood of 600 - 800+ dives per year.

Others only have the opportunity to dive on weekends, but they are still diving regularly, keeping their skills fresh and maintaining their equipment. These people can log 100-200 dives per year.

Then there are those fortunate enough to go away on several dive vacations a year. They may get 4 to 5 weeks of vacation diving in, logging on average 10 - 20 dives per trip, so they can easily get 100 dives per year in.

Then there are the once a year vacation divers. They may have been certified for 15 years, but after 15 years, they still only have about 150 logged dives. This category likes to take other types of vacations, have limited vacation time, limited vacation budgets, or simply don't have the same passion for the sport as many of us do. They dive one week a year for 4 or 5 days logging 8 to 10 dives per year. These types of divers are generally not very experienced.

Anyway...I went off on another long-winded tangent...but this is a good discussion!

Thanks for sharing opinions and viewpoints everybody!

 

[DandyDon]

Quite a detour from the orginal discussion, but I guess we covered that well...

At the time I did my OW, I just wanted to rush thru the course so I could dive. I suspect that a lot of students feel that way, and the agencies are catering to this feeling, just barely within "safe" paramaters. But - the first 20 dives are typically the most dangerous overall, so - it would be good if Padi Ow & AOW were combined and required, kinda' like the British Sub Aqua Club does. At least the diver would have that much diving and training - which although not actually "advanced," still better than a 4 dive experience of OW.

That is, 10 is more than 4, and AOW is more than OW, even if "Advanced" isn't actually. :15a:

 

[pilot fish]

Since this thread got diverted into such an interesting discussion, I posted it in its own thread in Basic Scuba Question section. The differing views on this tired subject are interesting. If you'd like, we could continue the discussin there?

 

[Rooster1]

Since this thread got diverted into such an interesting discussion, I posted it in its own thread in Basic Scuba Question section. The differing views on this tired subject are interesting. If you'd like, we could continue the discussin there?

To get back to your original question. I can not see a "good" operator allowing someone with little experience to dive Maricaibo reef.