Horizontal Obsession

[TSandM]

Nemrod, I didn't imply that you or captain stirred up silt. I was simply reacting to your statement that, since someone wasn't in a cave or a drysuit, they didn't have to worry about fanning a silty floor. I think they do. I would hope that neither of you would turn head up and fins down and kick when only a few inches above silt. I suspect you wouldn't.

Simple physics says that aiming your fins at the sea floor is going to push water there, and water hitting the sea floor will disturb whatever sediments are present. If it's rock or coarse sand, it won't do much. If it's fine silt, it will. Whether you're DIR or anything else, you need to avoid kicking water into fine sediments, if you want to preserve the visibility where you are.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

Are we there yet?

... close ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[RJP]

Ironically, everyone - including the turtle - in all the photos you show appears to be HORIZONTAL.

:shocked2:

Well, you see, this is the problem with folks, TSandM and all, you extrapolate your failures and the failures of your buddies to me or to Captain or to whoever.

I can assure you that neither he nor I stir up silt and since you are all about skills, anything you can do your way I can do our/my way as well. You are not the only people that have "skills" though I am thinking some of this is like the numchuck skills from a popular movie and liontars. Y'all seem to work a lot at what I and others find natural. Just saying as I am sort of worn out with the skills bragging, diving skill is not an exclusive DIR right. There are lots of good divers out there who don't do it your way and who are not obsessed with being horizontal.

No silt being stirred up here:

Nor here:

Nor by this fellow though a grouper as big a VW just took off:

This turtle is not DIR obviously because he swims down, swims around and then swims back up, millions of years of evolution have perfected his "skills" and yet somehow he is not horizontal!

And speaking of rude, well, this fellow takes the cake, talk about rude, here I have come all this way to take his picture and look what he does, fans up all the silt, guess he did not read secret DIR rule number 6.17.8790665478:

Ya'll got too many rules, me, I just swim down, swim around, swim back up, best way I can, any which way I can.

N

 

[spectrum]

Whether you're DIR or anything else, you need to avoid kicking water into fine sediments, if you want to preserve the visibility where you are.

That's how we find our way back!

 

[dumpsterDiver]

The (green?) turtle is not horizontal. The turtle is negatively bouyant and as soon as he stops finning, he will settle to the bottom. The slightly heads up position is necessary to move forward when you are overweighted.

 

[Thalassamania]

...
If you read my earlier half-mocking post, I think that you will see that one of the main reasons I am usually horizontal, even when I don't need to be, is similar to that. In some cases it is a critical skill, and I want to be able to do it well when I really need to do it.

I think the real point is that different people dive in different ways for different reasons. Think about the horse world, what is shared in common between Hunt Seat, Saddle Seat, Dressage, Steeplechase, Three-Day Event, Trail Ridding, Rodeo, etc.? And what is different? And why? Sometimes there's good reason, sometimes there's just tradition. But at the bottom line it would be a really bad idea to try calf roping from a Stuben Genesis D, on a gaited horse, no? Same with diving ... use the right technique for the right task, that'll dictate the right equipment.

...

you have done 1.000.000 dives and never a problem, nice,
but I've never been bent, but I do decostops. There is theory: if you swim your blood floods faster and you absorb more nitrox and decompression is more complicated. period. so better you don't swim if unnecessary.

Sorry, that doesn't even make it to theory, rather it is an hypothesis that remains (despite some attempts) unproven.

if your are with your head down pressure in your ears increase, so if you equalize you increase more and more pression in your ears and why do it withuot reason?

It really makes no difference if your ears lead or follow, except that when they lead you get to see things (or fend the off with your hands) before you blunder into things and make more of a mess.

in a cave better little frog kiks, even without silt, for many reasons (not touching stones or buddies, movment microcontrol etc.)
...and so on

There are lots of reason to frog kick in lots of places. There are also lots of good divers who can flutter kick and not disturb the bottom.

I see you go underwater like we do 25 years ago, and probably for you and your diving is OK, but don't say that it's the best way....
evolve, study, don't think your way is the best way possible! (I'm not a DIR guy)

You are being rather insulting when you imply that Captain (and folks like him) have not tried most everything and do not continue to try most everything that is developed, keep what works best for them and throw away what does not.

I am far from a graceful swimmer but for the life of me, I cannot figure out how someone would swim in a direction unless their body was oriented in that direction. I mean, can you "swim" in a vertical direction if your body is in a horizontal position?

Of course, people can ascend and descend without swimming. Usually this is done using a combination of breath control and manipulating one's buoyancy device. Ascending and descending in this fashion can be done in a horizontal or vertical position (or somewhere in between).

The merits of doing an ascent/descent while horizontal vs doing so while vertical might be interesting. However, the discussion around being horizontal while swimming in a horizontal direction seems strange to me.

They are speaking of maneuvering in much the way a submersible does, changes in buoyancy take you up and down and thrust controls movement fore and aft as well as yaw, while pitch his kept to a minimum.

100% of time without exception? Yeesh.

As for me, horizontal ascents are beneficial because you provide more surface area to control your buoyancy, allows you to control the gas in a drysuit without closing the valve, allows you to maintain buddy/team position and contact by back and forward kicking and puts you in a better position to tilt a few degrees (gosh, out of horizontal! ) to swim up or down as needed.

To me, those are compelling reasons for maintaining horizontal ascents and descents, but I would submit that it's a far cry from someone promoting being horizontal 100% of the time.

I think the increased surface area to control your buoyancy argument is especially specious. It does nothing to control your buoyancy which will take you up or down if it is not precisely neutral. You need to control your buoyancy with your BC and your your lungs regardless of your attitude in the water.

 

[DaleC]

ok, sorry, I know I have been a little rude, sorry.
I think in a forum sometimes is usefull to exasperate some ideas to have an interesting debate (really, I don't care about how you or everybody else goes underwater.... untill I have to recover the bodies)

you have done 1.000.000 dives and never a problem, nice,
but I've never been bent, but I do decostops. There is theory: if you swim your blood floods faster and you absorb more nitrox and decompression is more complicated. period. so better you don't swim if unnecessary.

if your are with your head down pressure in your ears increase, so if you equalize you increase more and more pression in your ears and why do it withuot reason?

in a cave better little frog kiks, even without silt, for many reasons (not touching stones or buddies, movment microcontrol etc.)
...and so on

I see you go underwater like we do 25 years ago, and probably for you and your diving is OK, but don't say that it's the best way....
evolve, study, don't think your way is the best way possible! (I'm not a DIR guy)

peace and respect
(but it's a forum debate 'bro

Yes, it is a discussion forum so perhaps you could avoid the hyperbole and actually read what people post so you don't get called on your BS. No where did I say my way was "the best". I merely shared something from my own personal experience. What you did was to collect opinions from other posters and arrogantly grade them as to whether they were right or not. Who's the one riding their high horse?

Try talking about your own experiences instead of trying to correct mine.

 

[Thalassamania]

...

Try talking about your own experiences instead of trying to correct mine.

Good one!

 

[Gombessa]

I think the increased surface area to control your buoyancy argument is especially specious.

I certainly won't ask you to take my word for it, but in my own diving, I've noticed that being horizontal slows down ascents and descents during buoyancy swings caused by heavy surge or having too much gas in the wing. It retards the effect of such swings and gives me a bit more time to react. Feel free not to agree or suggest that new divers flare when they accidentally find their way up to the surface.

 

[Thalassamania]

I certainly won't ask you to take my word for it, but in my own diving, I've noticed that being horizontal slows down ascents and descents during buoyancy swings caused by heavy surge or having too much gas in the wing. It retards the effect of such swings and gives me a bit more time to react. Feel free not to agree or suggest that new divers flare when they accidentally find their way up to the surface.

If you are neutrally buoyant to begin with then there is no force up or down and thus the amount of drag is zero since there is no motion (required for friction or drag). The moral of the physics lesson is control your buoyancy with pin-point precision. Now if you wanted to say that maintaining a horizontal attitude at all times buffers small changes in buoyancy and permits a diver who is not, for whatever reason, able to quickly establish and maintain buoyancy with pin-point precision to perform better than they might be able to otherwise ... that would be accurate.

I suggest that new divers do whatever they have to to learn how to do it right as quickly as possible.