Honesty in a dishonest world

[jsquaredFL]

Could you be a bit more specific? You don't have to give the name of the person, but in order to have any idea how to answer, I'd need a few questions answered.

You say you know from personal experience, and you mention you can only speak for OW as you are not cavern/cave trained, but you also reference cavern/cave as a potential problem.

How do you know that the person is not certified to the level they state?
Did you dive with them? Did they tell you that they are not who they claim to be? Did someone else tell you? Did you inquire with the agency they said they were certified through?

Your question is not as "simple" as you propose without an understanding of how you came across the info that proves someone is not the real deal.

As far as Cave/Cavern, I agree with jj and Perrone, you'd know long before you got too far into the cavern, and definitely before you entered the cave. All you'd need to do is a full S-drill, bubble check, and talk to them about 5 minutes about their experience. It would be pretty obvious by then if they had no clue.

I know because this person was in my cavern class. The person in question did not complete the training that day, so I was also forced to call it off. I have been busy with work since then and my first available weekend i will be back in the water finishing it up. I do know on the other hand though that the person in question never returned to the facility and has not completed the training for cavern.

To the OP-
One thing I forgot to mention that could be what you're seeing, is cave/cavern divers who are just screwing around in open water when they dive with you. I know for a fact that I'll do back flips and various other things that cause me to go vertical in the water instead of the horizontal trim I've been taught in cavern/intro, heck sometimes we even take one of those underwater football things with us and play catch lol... I don't lug heavy steel tanks around if I'm diving with someone wearing an AL80, I'll wear an AL80. Sometimes (this weekend) I'll wear a jacket BC, with full rec gear, just because my regs are already mounted on my doubles, and I'm too lazy to swap them over.

Also, places like Ginnie springs, FL state parks, etc all require to see your cert cards before diving. Since you almost always check in with a buddy, that solves that issue.

yeah, when we went through the class the level of skill in terms of buoyancy control that I witnessed was not exactly reassuring. On at least one occasion I was kicked into the ceiling of the cavern (a forceful and uncomfortable experience). it was then that I realized how different things can be when you aren't diving with your normal buddy (wife). i also learned that someone saying they have 15 years dive experience does not exactly mean much at all in many situations

 

[jviehe]

Just to be devils advocate, since when are you the judge that everyone must be trained by an Agency to go diving? Yes, there are state parks and private property owners that require standard training to dive there, but simply because someone doesnt have a card doesnt make them unsafe to dive with.

Now if someone is stating a fact that they have completed training when they havent or building up more experience than they have as a reference to their skill, I dont see a problem with pointing it out to your friends. Beyond that everyone is responsible for themselves. You arent responsible for everyone else.

 

[Randy43068]

I dunno Dave, based on what the OP said, I can't see it as a "personal attack" to expose the person.

I do wonder exactly what's behind the OPs concern, however.

ScubaBoard does not permit personal attacks – so be careful there. You also have to ask yourself how important is the information. It is no secret the some people exaggerate their skills, training and other things on the internet and outing that person happens from time to time.

You have to ask yourself why is it important. If it truly a safety issue and you know the real facts, then just state those facts. (Diver A has said he is Cave1 certified and is planning to lead a cave dive with new divers and I know factually he is only certified to AOW.)

If it is not for the safety issue, just how important is it? Poor dive skills show up pretty fast. If he is overstating his training levels, people find out pretty quick, regardless of their certification level. OTOH, Most of us know a few OW divers that have terrific dive skills but never bothered getting the advanced cards.

 

[jsquaredFL]

Just to be devils advocate, since when are you the judge that everyone must be trained by an Agency to go diving? Yes, there are state parks and private property owners that require standard training to dive there, but simply because someone doesnt have a card doesnt make them unsafe to dive with.

Now if someone is stating a fact that they have completed training when they havent or building up more experience than they have as a reference to their skill, I dont see a problem with pointing it out to your friends. Beyond that everyone is responsible for themselves. You arent responsible for everyone else.

i think that in an overhead environment, having the right training is absolutely critical. Especially with lost buddy drills, lost line drills, etc.

I definitely thing you are correct, you aren't responsible for everyone else.

I dunno Dave, based on what the OP said, I can't see it as a "personal attack" to expose the person.

I do wonder exactly what's behind the OPs concern, however.

My concern was just a question of what it is I should do in a situation like this. The overwhelming response seems to be to do nothing as his actions in the water would provide all the information necessary.

 

[ucfdiver]

yeah, when we went through the class the level of skill in terms of buoyancy control that I witnessed was not exactly reassuring. On at least one occasion I was kicked into the ceiling of the cavern (a forceful and uncomfortable experience). it was then that I realized how different things can be when you aren't diving with your normal buddy (wife). i also learned that someone saying they have 15 years dive experience does not exactly mean much at all in many situations

You're just as responsible for being kicked as the person who kicked you. Get out of their way. Remember cavern is a basic overhead course, and really seems to serve the purpose of teaching the diver what they DON'T know, and what they need to learn.

And I agree with you that dive numbers or years of experience mean nothing. I've made tons of dives that I learned very little from, and sometimes you hit spurts where you learn a lot in a short period of time.

 

[jsquaredFL]

You're just as responsible for being kicked as the person who kicked you. Get out of their way. Remember cavern is a basic overhead course, and really seems to serve the purpose of teaching the diver what they DON'T know, and what they need to learn.

And I agree with you that dive numbers or years of experience mean nothing. I've made tons of dives that I learned very little from, and sometimes you hit spurts where you learn a lot in a short period of time.

I would normally agree, but we were in touch contact and I had no mask on, while my buddy did, so I was temporarily blind. I guess he saw something he liked, decided to turn around and without proper buoyancy I got a swift and powerful kick in the gut, then a fin in the face and shot up like a cruise missile. It wasn't that big of a place so luckily my tank hit the rock ceiling before my head or I doubt I would be writing this right now.

I have found that my wife who just started diving about 7 months ago is a phenomenally competent diver and is every bit as good and safe a diver as I am (which either says a lot for her or not much for me ) and I started diving in 1999

 

[Teamcasa]

ScubaBoard does not permit personal attacks – so be careful there. ....

I dunno Dave, based on what the OP said, I can't see it as a "personal attack" to expose the person.

I do wonder exactly what's behind the OPs concern, however.

I can be, depending on how it is done and what is said. Just saying so and so claims to have reached x cert level and I know for a fact he is only x trained would not be a personal attack. However, if the OP said, "That dirty so and so, lied about his cert level and he is going to kill someone."

What I like to find out is motive. Why out the guy (unless safety is the issue)?

 

[OneBrightGator]

I would normally agree, but we were in touch contact and I had no mask on, while my buddy did, so I was temporarily blind. I guess he saw something he liked, decided to turn around and without proper buoyancy I got a swift and powerful kick in the gut, then a fin in the face and shot up like a cruise missile. It wasn't that big of a place so luckily my tank hit the rock ceiling before my head or I doubt I would be writing this right now.

Sounds more like a scene from The Matrix 4 then a dive...

There was a situation extremely similar to this not too long ago. I, and many others, let someone parade around alluding that they were trained much "further" then they actually were, all the while insulting us while we sat on the correct information. The truth is, when you out someone, you're going to look like the jerk no matter how right you are. So we just let him go on, correcting misinformation as it came... until we had enough and brought the pain... Haven't heard much from him since. btw... My friends and I still probably looked like the jerks in the end.

 

[ucfdiver]

Sounds more like a scene from The Matrix 4 then a dive...

There was a situation extremely similar to this not too long ago. I, and many others, let someone parade around alluding that they were trained much "further" then they actually were, all the while insulting us while we sat on the correct information. The truth is, when you out someone, you're going to look like the jerk no matter how right you are. So we just let him go on, correcting misinformation as it came... until we had enough and brought the pain... Haven't heard much from him since. btw... My friends and I still probably looked like the jerks in the end.

You seem to be good at calling people out.....and what sucks, is when you've done it to me, I typically wait a few days and agree with you

 

[Roko]

yeah, when we went through the class the level of skill in terms of buoyancy control that I witnessed was not exactly reassuring. On at least one occasion I was kicked into the ceiling of the cavern (a forceful and uncomfortable experience). it was then that I realized how different things can be when you aren't diving with your normal buddy (wife). i also learned that someone saying they have 15 years dive experience does not exactly mean much at all in many situations

I have 8 years of dive experience.. And only 20 dives.
My lack of dives is due to a big hiatus and being far from water, but now I'm finally getting back into it.. But it shows that you can't judge experience based on how long someone's been doing it. I'll be the first to admit that I'm still a newbie to diving even though I've been "doing it for a long time" Sometimes even the number of dives cant be used to really properly judge, especially if someone's doing something wrong. In Mexico recently, one of the dive shop operators (not a DM or anything, just one of the regular workers) came along on a shallow dive. Although he apparently had many dives, he didn't seem to understand buoyancy and how fins work, instead choosing to drag himself along the sea floor with his hands..

Anyways, getting to the point, I think that you've gotta be honest with yourself and honest with whoever doesn't have the experience to go beyond a basic dive. As mentioned earlier, you'll look like a jerk, but in the end it could mean his or your life if things go wrong. If the dive buddy is worth the air he breathes, he'll learn from it and wisen up. Otherwise, find someone else.

I suppose I take my viewpoints more from my time in the Army than from experience diving, but I'm huge on team work which is why I would never want to dive beyond a basic dive with someone who's not all there, skill wise or teamwork wise, and I would confront an incident that happens underwater with said individual.
Heh, maybe that's why the teamwork and skills aspect of DIR sound appealing to me...