ok so who is it?
Honesty in a dishonest world
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ScubaBoard does not permit personal attacks so be careful there. You also have to ask yourself how important is the information. It is no secret the some people exaggerate their skills, training and other things on the internet and outing that person happens from time to time.
You have to ask yourself why is it important. If it truly a safety issue and you know the real facts, then just state those facts. (Diver A has said he is Cave1 certified and is planning to lead a cave dive with new divers and I know factually he is only certified to AOW.)
If it is not for the safety issue, just how important is it? Poor dive skills show up pretty fast. If he is overstating his training levels, people find out pretty quick, regardless of their certification level. OTOH, Most of us know a few OW divers that have terrific dive skills but never bothered getting the advanced cards.
paradicio
Contributor
The whole concept of someone lying about their diving skill is totally foreign to me. I can’t even fathom it.
I’ve been diving for a year, one year. I’ve got 62 dives. Would I ever tell anyone anything different than that just so I can do a dive that is above my experience level??? Absolutely not. Granted I’m still new, but I’ve not done a dive yet that was worth dying for.
I’ve been diving for a year, one year. I’ve got 62 dives. Would I ever tell anyone anything different than that just so I can do a dive that is above my experience level??? Absolutely not. Granted I’m still new, but I’ve not done a dive yet that was worth dying for.
don Francisco
Contributor
This is always a thorny issue, Outing someone who mis-represents himself. I'm from the MYOB school and wouldn't advise getting involved unless the potential victim is someone you know & care about. You have the information and can take care of yourself, but if you tell anyone else you stand stand a good chance of making not one but two enemies.
The adage -- never a good deed goes unpunished -- applies here.
Hopefully, though not always, divers would approach strangers with a degree of caution before diving with them, especially in the unforgiving cave/technical milieu. I've often dived with strangers, and rely on my own powers of observation, rather than checking cards, or accepting their statements at face value. In my somewhat limited experience I've found that there's an inverse relationship between actual dive skill & professed dive skill, so I worry about those folks who feel the need to impress me with credentials.
Good luck whatever you decide to do with the info. You might get guidance from a friend who's job causes him to deal with this kind of inside-info dilemma, such as a lawyer or psychiatrist.
The above notwithstanding I might feel compelled to speak up if I saw a "clear & present danger" such as a relatively inexperienced diver about to start a complex dive with this guy. I'd still approach the situaltion carefully, for example asking how well this fellow knew who he was diving with, and taking it from there.
Even in what seems to be the clearest scenario, approach ratting out phonies with about the same caution you'd use when approaching an abandoned briefcase at the El Al terminal.
The adage -- never a good deed goes unpunished -- applies here.
Hopefully, though not always, divers would approach strangers with a degree of caution before diving with them, especially in the unforgiving cave/technical milieu. I've often dived with strangers, and rely on my own powers of observation, rather than checking cards, or accepting their statements at face value. In my somewhat limited experience I've found that there's an inverse relationship between actual dive skill & professed dive skill, so I worry about those folks who feel the need to impress me with credentials.
Good luck whatever you decide to do with the info. You might get guidance from a friend who's job causes him to deal with this kind of inside-info dilemma, such as a lawyer or psychiatrist.
The above notwithstanding I might feel compelled to speak up if I saw a "clear & present danger" such as a relatively inexperienced diver about to start a complex dive with this guy. I'd still approach the situaltion carefully, for example asking how well this fellow knew who he was diving with, and taking it from there.
Even in what seems to be the clearest scenario, approach ratting out phonies with about the same caution you'd use when approaching an abandoned briefcase at the El Al terminal.
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seaducer
Contributor
I see no problem with calling a liar a liar. And I also see no reason not to.
nannymouse
Contributor
I believe that it depends on the potential danger.
I have done one (1) swim through of about 8 feet in a channel that was big enough to drive a car through, and which I could see the surface on the other side before I entered. I asked my buddies if it was OK and they said "OK... you lead" ("and if you don't make it, we will not go").
But I think that I need a WHOLE lot more training before I do any more than that.
This is a response to a very similar question on another dive board:
Dive-aholic said-
"First, don't dive with this guy again until he agrees to bring it back to his experience and training level. You're just putting yourself in danger and there will end up being 2 victims instead of 1. You obviously know this is the right thing to do since you're here asking.
Second, talk to him about your concerns. The way you decide to approach him depends on his personality and attitude. You may need to sit down and discuss the issue or you may need to be harsh. No one who doesn't know this guy can tell you what the best way to approach him will be.
Third, you can encourage all the additional training you want, but if his attitude sucks, then it won't matter. If he gets a decent instructor he'll not get his card and just go find another instructor who will put up with him and give him a card.
Finally, have him watch these videos. They may not change his mind, but maybe they will.
Good luck!"
__________________
Rob
Chipola Divers
I have done one (1) swim through of about 8 feet in a channel that was big enough to drive a car through, and which I could see the surface on the other side before I entered. I asked my buddies if it was OK and they said "OK... you lead" ("and if you don't make it, we will not go").
But I think that I need a WHOLE lot more training before I do any more than that.
This is a response to a very similar question on another dive board:
Dive-aholic said-
"First, don't dive with this guy again until he agrees to bring it back to his experience and training level. You're just putting yourself in danger and there will end up being 2 victims instead of 1. You obviously know this is the right thing to do since you're here asking.
Second, talk to him about your concerns. The way you decide to approach him depends on his personality and attitude. You may need to sit down and discuss the issue or you may need to be harsh. No one who doesn't know this guy can tell you what the best way to approach him will be.
Third, you can encourage all the additional training you want, but if his attitude sucks, then it won't matter. If he gets a decent instructor he'll not get his card and just go find another instructor who will put up with him and give him a card.
Finally, have him watch these videos. They may not change his mind, but maybe they will.
Good luck!"
__________________
Rob
Chipola Divers
Could you be a bit more specific? You don't have to give the name of the person, but in order to have any idea how to answer, I'd need a few questions answered.
You say you know from personal experience, and you mention you can only speak for OW as you are not cavern/cave trained, but you also reference cavern/cave as a potential problem.
How do you know that the person is not certified to the level they state?
Did you dive with them? Did they tell you that they are not who they claim to be? Did someone else tell you? Did you inquire with the agency they said they were certified through?
Your question is not as "simple" as you propose without an understanding of how you came across the info that proves someone is not the real deal.
As far as Cave/Cavern, I agree with jj and Perrone, you'd know long before you got too far into the cavern, and definitely before you entered the cave. All you'd need to do is a full S-drill, bubble check, and talk to them about 5 minutes about their experience. It would be pretty obvious by then if they had no clue.
You say you know from personal experience, and you mention you can only speak for OW as you are not cavern/cave trained, but you also reference cavern/cave as a potential problem.
How do you know that the person is not certified to the level they state?
Did you dive with them? Did they tell you that they are not who they claim to be? Did someone else tell you? Did you inquire with the agency they said they were certified through?
Your question is not as "simple" as you propose without an understanding of how you came across the info that proves someone is not the real deal.
As far as Cave/Cavern, I agree with jj and Perrone, you'd know long before you got too far into the cavern, and definitely before you entered the cave. All you'd need to do is a full S-drill, bubble check, and talk to them about 5 minutes about their experience. It would be pretty obvious by then if they had no clue.
RikRaeder
Contributor
As others have said, someone who doesn't have the training/skills is usually found out rather quickly, even if they talk the talk. In any event, usually before damage is done. So much becomes clear in the water, even in low visability. I guess one or two people do misrepresent themselves on the internet (<--- sarcasm). I should think that most people know that. Anyone who follows blindly what they read on the internet (or hear on the street, etc) without verifying and doing a bit of alternate research on their own is probably a Darwin Award candidate anyway.
Another possibility, not knowing enough of the situation in question here, is self-delusion. That Arnold Schwartzenagger physique I see in the mirror might not be what I really look like (<---extreme sarcasm). Anway, point in case. I recently met a co-worker who dives. Here's a snippit:
"Yeah, I just love diving deep. On my last trip to XXX, we went down to 40m. Yeah, the others couldn't go down so deep, because they aren't advanced divers, so just me and the guide went down."
"What was the water temperature?"
"Let me check my log...yeah....hmm...dive number 12...."
Uh-huh.
"Yeah, I have problems floating a lot. I'm going for my rescue cert next."
Uh-huh.
"You know, for my first fifty dives, I really worked on my buoyancy. The skills are so tough to master. Even after a hundred dives, I don't consider myself advanced yet, although I took the training..."
Sometimes, perhaps a subtle lesson in humility may do the trick. Divers, especially new divers (like me) can't grasp the intricacies, dangers, and nuiances right away.
Another possibility, not knowing enough of the situation in question here, is self-delusion. That Arnold Schwartzenagger physique I see in the mirror might not be what I really look like (<---extreme sarcasm). Anway, point in case. I recently met a co-worker who dives. Here's a snippit:
"Yeah, I just love diving deep. On my last trip to XXX, we went down to 40m. Yeah, the others couldn't go down so deep, because they aren't advanced divers, so just me and the guide went down."
"What was the water temperature?"
"Let me check my log...yeah....hmm...dive number 12...."
Uh-huh.
"Yeah, I have problems floating a lot. I'm going for my rescue cert next."
Uh-huh.
"You know, for my first fifty dives, I really worked on my buoyancy. The skills are so tough to master. Even after a hundred dives, I don't consider myself advanced yet, although I took the training..."
Sometimes, perhaps a subtle lesson in humility may do the trick. Divers, especially new divers (like me) can't grasp the intricacies, dangers, and nuiances right away.
KeysCuda
Contributor
True dat.
Best divers I know are the guys who don't feel the need to broadcast their claimed experience, or load themselves up with non-essential gear. They just get in the water and dive like they belong there.
ucfdiver
Contributor
No offense, but when referring to cave certs, you're dead wrong. I have to repeat my intro to cave class next month mainly for missing 2 hand/light signals. We had 3 people in our class, 2 of us have to retake it and work on some things in 2 weeks, and the one who passed was taking it for the 2nd time.
Instructors don't take lightly to sending students off in caves who aren't prepared. Not only do they lose a student, they lose a friend, as does everyone who that student then goes off and starts diving with. Anyone who takes a cave class must be prepared to repeat it, there's simply no way around that, every instructor makes that very clear. You're being watched by at least 1-2 divers at all times, some instructors bring former full cave students in as well so that 1 person is watching you at all times. ANYTHING you do that's different from what you usually do is going to get questioned.
Instructors who certify poorly skilled divers get talked about, and the word spreads quickly through the community. One student can really hurt your reputation. Trust me, they think about all of these things. Stop by a dive shop near cave country one day, you'll quickly notice how many people seem to know each other on a first name basis, there aren't many secrets.
I do agree that AOW cards don't mean jack squat, but tech cards do. I know where you're coming from, my nitrox class had someone in it who couldn't even read dive tables, so she was told to go buy a computer and passed on that agreement. My written test for intro to cave had questions about omitted deco, repetitive dive tables, and staged decompression, all were to be done with no help. You're not even allowed to deco for intro to cave, these questions were just there "just in case" it's hit on accident. There's a HUGE difference. One or two bad cave instructors are out there, I'm sure, but let's not generalize the industry on what the minority do.
I know of at least one cave instructor (GDI) who posts on here. Hopefully he'll chime in.
To the OP-
One thing I forgot to mention that could be what you're seeing, is cave/cavern divers who are just screwing around in open water when they dive with you. I know for a fact that I'll do back flips and various other things that cause me to go vertical in the water instead of the horizontal trim I've been taught in cavern/intro, heck sometimes we even take one of those underwater football things with us and play catch lol... I don't lug heavy steel tanks around if I'm diving with someone wearing an AL80, I'll wear an AL80. Sometimes (this weekend) I'll wear a jacket BC, with full rec gear, just because my regs are already mounted on my doubles, and I'm too lazy to swap them over.
Also, places like Ginnie springs, FL state parks, etc all require to see your cert cards before diving. Since you almost always check in with a buddy, that solves that issue.
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