HOG Equipment service class report

[leabre]

As interesting and useful as this thread has been, it now seems like a boxing match between the manufacturer -- who has done the industry a great favor -- and one disgruntled diver unhappy about the manufacturers policy and requirements for an industry first public regulator servicing class. Quite frankly it comes across and childish, selfish, and ungrateful -- even if that's not the intention of this debate.

The fact that the HOG line of equipment is aimed at technical divers; with a class through a technical diving agency requiring students to be a technical diver is not going to change. Rather than trying to force the vendor to relent on this angle, perhaps people should lobby that the EDGE line which is aimed at recreational divers open up a service class with differing pre-requisites.

Just sayin'


Or perhaps this thread can be split so we can continue to follow discussion about the class report and can ignore a seperate thread discussing the details about whether HOG service classes should be open to non-technical divers -- a discussion I would be happy to not have to follow without outright ignoring the original conversation.

 

[highflier]

As interesting and useful as this thread has been, it now seems like a boxing match between the manufacturer -- who has done the industry a great favor -- and one disgruntled diver unhappy about the manufacturers policy and requirements for an industry first public regulator servicing class. Quite frankly it comes across and childish, selfish, and ungrateful -- even if that's not the intention of this debate.

The fact that the HOG line of equipment is aimed at technical divers; with a class through a technical diving agency requiring students to be a technical diver is not going to change. Rather than trying to force the vendor to relent on this angle, perhaps people should lobby that the EDGE line which is aimed at recreational divers open up a service class with differing pre-requisites.

Just sayin'


Or perhaps this thread can be split so we can continue to follow discussion about the class report and can ignore a seperate thread discussing the details about whether HOG service classes should be open to non-technical divers -- a discussion I would be happy to not have to follow without outright ignoring the original conversation.

The current edge stage 1 and hog stage 1 are the same. From what I understand the stage 2 is not that complex. Thus seperate class requirements does not make sense to me.

I do like bubbles idea of the pretest. Anybody that can pass the pretest has obviously commited to learning about regs and how they work. On the other 2 ideas, from what I unde stand hog is a small company. Creating specs docs ,pdf's and or movies is a time consuming thing. Bubble maybe you should volunteer to do this.

Highflier

 

[robertarak]

When I was a kid I had a clubhouse. I only allowed access to a select few. It was my clubhouse, it was my rules. I don't see a problem with this. Maybe we should complain to Rolls Royce that we want to buy their product, but we feel it should be priced far less to enable more of us to buy them? How about we suggest Edge/HOG have no requirements when hiring engineers or assembly technicians? They should not be allowed to require a certain skill set to build or design our life support equipment. What a joke. Don't like a private company's policy? buy a different product. In the mean time, I have to go find a HOG class to take.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Bubbletrouble, are you personally interested in taking this course?

Yes. I'm also advocating for all the other recreational divers out there who own HOG regs (or are thinking about buying HOG regs) and would like to take the reg repair class.

Bubbletrouble have you talked to anyone about taking the class? I would be very surprised if something couldn't be "worked out", you may not have a card at the end but that's not what it's about anyway. right?

I have personally participated in threads here on ScubaBoard discussing the tech cert prerequisite for the HOG reg repair class. It has been made abundantly clear by class instructors and the manufacturer himself (cerich) that an OW recreational diver with no history of taking any tech diving courses would not meet the tech cert prerequisite for the class. The possibility of waiving the tech cert prerequisite was never mentioned in the materials advertising the class.

As for the card, I'm not really sure what the usefulness/significance of it is.

The real question is whether or not he even owns a HOG regulator...

Once again, you're missing the point. Your statement is absolutely irrelevant. I can be a current customer or a potential customer. Either way, I would hope that my well-reasoned opinions would be taken into consideration by the manufacturer and/or instructional agency offering the course.

The main reasons I do not already own HOG regs are:

• A freely downloadable PDF version of the official reg tech manual does not exist.
• For a recreational diver with no tech aspirations whatsoever or history of taking any tech classes, I cannot take the HOG reg repair course.

 

[redacted]

As interesting and useful as this thread has been, it now seems like a boxing match between the manufacturer -- who has done the industry a great favor -- and one disgruntled diver unhappy about the manufacturers policy and requirements for an industry first public regulator servicing class. Quite frankly it comes across and childish, selfish, and ungrateful -- even if that's not the intention of this debate.

The fact that the HOG line of equipment is aimed at technical divers; with a class through a technical diving agency requiring students to be a technical diver is not going to change. Rather than trying to force the vendor to relent on this angle, perhaps people should lobby that the EDGE line which is aimed at recreational divers open up a service class with differing pre-requisites.

Just sayin'


Or perhaps this thread can be split so we can continue to follow discussion about the class report and can ignore a seperate thread discussing the details about whether HOG service classes should be open to non-technical divers -- a discussion I would be happy to not have to follow without outright ignoring the original conversation.

It is more than one diver that feels the policy is a step in the right direction but falls short of serving all current and potential HOG customers.

Would you believe I went to my local Hog dealer and he would not sell me a HOG regulator because I did not have a tech cert? No!!!!

 

[cerich]

My comments in red again ..

Why should a HOG reg owner have to dig through a thread on ScubaBoard in order to unearth the schematics for his reg?
Post all of that info on the HOG manufacturer's website where it can easily be located and accessed by everyone. Sorry dude, I suck at the my website. i have a college kid who just went back to school doing it. i have asked him to get them up. When it happens it happens. Sorry that pisses you off but I am not a big company. I will however work on it.

In this thread, I have discussed several of the changes I would make. I will gladly restate them (and a few more) for you here:

1. Put together a PDF version of a step-by-step HOG reg tech repair manual. In this PDF, include crisp photos of key steps, torque specs, recommended tool list, detailed descriptions of each step during disassembly/cleaning/reassembly, helpful hints on carrying out each step successfully, troubleshooting procedures, exploded parts diagram, and the standard sizes/material/durometer for all o-rings and material composition of low pressure and high pressure seats. There is a manual
   Make this PDF file freely downloadable on the HOG manufacturer's website. I discussed this today with one of my dealers. He felt the same. I may go this direction, I may not
2. Remove the tech cert prerequisite for the HOG reg repair class. Replace it with a prerequisite that, at least nominally, sets up the student for success in the reg repair class. You could have all the students take a pre-test prior to the class to assess their knowledge of reg function theory. The Scuba Regulator Savvy book could serve as the source for the tested material. Such a pre-test would ensure that students read the book before class. The pre-test could be conducted as a multiple-choice online test or as a written, in-person exam. Passing the pre-test would be a requirement for being admitted to take the course. They are already required to read the book prior. I disagree with a pre test, I want the instructors to see how somebody can actually work on the gear. The test is fine but not enough without actually seeing the students wrenching
3. Work towards an online format for the HOG reg repair course. Put together a series of videos with up-close shots of the various parts of the regulator. Include hints/tips on disassembly/reassembly. Discuss the approach to troubleshooting reg problems. Demonstrate reg troubleshooting scenarios, e.g., i.p. creep, second stage freeflow, etc. Offer videos that go step-by-step through the HOG reg tech manual. To add value, you could even include a segment on the basics of regulator design and function, although students should already have a pretty good grasp of this if they were asked to take the pre-test. Animations would be helpful but not necessary. How much would you pay for this? Plus it cuts my dealers out, that is not what I want.

Changes #1 and #2 could be implemented rather quickly.

Change #3 would understandably take time/money to develop. We're not expecting this to happen overnight. Perhaps something 1-2 years down the road would be reasonable.

Look the reality is that the course can teach a person to service EDGE as well as HOG. I considered opening it to all but in the beginning it was determined to open it to the technical diving community. There are quite a few GOOD reasons for this.Once again I need to stress that the bar for entry is very low, lots of people seem to think it is too high, I kinda feel that if a person feels the bar is too high to enter that possibly they really aren't the type that should be servicing their gear anyhow....

heres some facts, for all the buzz around this course, not that many are actually taking it. It seems that the vocal minority that talk about servicing their own gear mostly just want to do it, they don't want to take a class anyhow. That's fine, I get it really. I've left behind a thousand perfectly good things I broke taking them apart in my lifetime.... From my perspective as a experienced tech that at one time used to work on 6 or more regs a day I REALLY believe that some combination of training and mentoring along with liberal practice is what makes somebody a good tech. For me outside of the EDGE and HOG regs I honestly don't even consider myself a reg tech anymore. It's been years since I worked on a wide variety of regs and when I dig into newer ones of other brands I sometimes find myself asking CURRENT techs questions. I've serviced thousand of regs, have taken tech classes from Scubapro, Seaquest, Cressi Draeger, Mares, Sherwood, Genesis, Atomic, Dacor, Aeris, Oceanic and a couple others I have forgotten. I have taught repair clinic for Mares/Dacor, Oceanic/Aeris and now EDGE/HOG.

I want people to be better tech divers by having a better understanding of their equipment, I want to have company policy that makes consumers using my brands feel more competent and comfortable with their gear and I want to offer my dealers something never offered before. The chance to have a better consumer/dealer relationship, in particular with tech divers who to be blunt have often not had a smooth road when they want to service their own gear.

 

[cerich]

It is more than one diver that feels the policy is a step in the right direction but falls short of serving all current and potential HOG customers.

Would you believe I went to my local Hog dealer and he would not sell me a HOG regulator because I did not have a tech cert? No!!!!

what the hay are you talking about? I don't believe that my dealers are not selling HOG regs to non tech certified divers.

 

[TSandM]

You know, in six years of posting on SB -- and posting some threads that went wildly awry, some of which ended up with some nasty personal attacks -- I'm not sure I've ever regretted starting one as much as I regret starting this one.

The HOG policy on reg repair has been in place for some time, and anyone here who wanted to start a thread to complain about it has been able to do so.

This thread was to report about the experience of taking the class.

I wish you guys would go start your own thread, if you want to continue this. I have already written to apologize profusely to Chris. I think his policies are delightful, and I am really unhappy to see him berated for them.

 

[Aqua-Andy]

I have personally participated in threads here on ScubaBoard discussing the tech cert prerequisite for the HOG reg repair class. It has been made abundantly clear by class instructors and the manufacturer himself (cerich) that an OW recreational diver with no history of taking any tech diving courses would not meet the tech cert prerequisite for the class. The possibility of waiving the tech cert prerequisite was never mentioned in the materials advertis

On a Public board I don't think they would make an exception. But if you contacted an instructor that teaches the course an explained you situation to them, maybe they might make an exception. But you will not know if you don't ask. But would it hurt to take an intro to tech class of another tech class? I know my diving drastically improved when I took my ADV.nitrox/ deco class. Life is all about give and take and we all have to make compromises. You could also contact ODS and use one of there designs or design a reg of your liking and have them manufacture it for you, import the regs, start a website and company (maybe BUBBLE SCUBA?) contact dealers to sell the regs for you and don't forget the training videos and all the training you will have to provide to all your new loyal customers. Me I would just take a tech course it would be much easier, and hay you may learn something or actually have fun doing it. My best dive buddies I have met by taking dive classes with them.

 

[redacted]

what the hay are you talking about? I don't believe that my dealers are not selling HOG regs to non tech certified divers.

I was not serious but just trying to make a point. A few respondents have said that HOG is targetd on the tech community and that is why only tech divers are eligible for the service training. Fact is, HOG regs are sold to anyone. Seems to me there is no good reason to not "target" the documentation and training in the same way. In fact, it appears to me that your dealers will sell the parts to anyone so It might be better to just leave the training audience up to them also. Folks who are not serious about DIY will not be paying the $$$ for tools, parts, and training.

I'm really looking to help get you beyond "the beginning". It has been a while.