HOG Equipment service class report

[cerich]

Really??? How much could everybody overthink this?
First off all I never stated that Advanced Nitrox is the min to enter, the min to enter is a tech certification. That could be full Tmix CC or a intro to tech card from TDI, a GUE Fundies with a tech pass but NOT a Fundies with a rec pass.

Of course the tech card has NOTHING to do with the ability of the person to service their gear. That would be a STUPID argument. You say we are making it, I challenge you to find that.

The REASON that the course require a tech card is because it was made determined to open the course to the group of divers that would most benefit, technical divers. It was something new and a industry first. If the intended audience is technical divers it doesn't seem unreasonable to ask for a technical certification.

This wasn't about stopping people , it was about making it available.

Honestly, this frustrates me. I get flack from shops (last year at BTS I had two dealers come to my booth wanting to "step outside" over this) I get flack from you guys because I somehow made it too difficult to enter (complete BS, the bar is low) and people upset that I didn't include EDGE and recreational divers, just HOG. (which I dont care if somebody who take the class services their EDGE regs, just get trained.

The ONLY reason that we didn't open it up to every recreational diver is that we felt most recreational divers don't want to service their gear and those that do will easily figure out how to get on the course.

Advanced nitrox has nothing to do with regulator repair/servicing.
The instructional agency should have set the bar with a relevant requirement.
Perhaps reading "Scuba Regulator Savvy" and taking a straightforward test on the material would have been more appropriate.
At least then, the manufacturer and instructional agency wouldn't have to make the ridiculous argument that an arbitrary "tech certification" is necessary for a person to successfully service scuba regulators.

 

[cerich]

It is a non issue sell parts and show parts drawings. It is no problem. Regulator repair is easy. A few o'rings and some minor adjustments. No big deal.

yeah but not so much the troubleshooting when it is a non bad oring or seat issue. It isn't rocket science but a proper and comprehensive understanding of how a reg works is required. Many "techs" don't understand and many "service clinics" don't explain, just change the orings and seats, turn to adjust and go. "If that doesn't fix it send it to us and we'll take care of it." EXCEPT that tech divers in Iceland on a expedition may find that not a option..

 

[halocline]

Honestly, this frustrates me. I get flack from shops (last year at BTS I had two dealers come to my booth wanting to "step outside" over this) I get flack from you guys....

Well, if you pissed off dealers enough so they wanted to fight by opening up service to the rest of us, we, the DIY usual suspects, will be glad to fight alongside you at the next scuba brawl...

As far as getting flack from a few people on an internet forum, well, isn't that what the internet is for? Pointless self righteous arguing? Don't sweat it, and you're definitely pushing the industry in the right direction.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

Of course the tech card has NOTHING to do with the ability of the person to service their gear. That would be a STUPID argument. You say we are making it, I challenge you to find that.

@cerich: Statment of a class prerequisite certainly implies that the knowledge gained from the prerequisite is critical for successfully taking the class. At least that's how it works in the academic world.

Honestly, this frustrates me. I get flack from shops (last year at BTS I had two dealers come to my booth wanting to "step outside" over this) I get flack from you guys because I somehow made it too difficult to enter (complete BS, the bar is low) and people upset that I didn't include EDGE and recreational divers, just HOG. (which I dont care if somebody who take the class services their EDGE regs, just get trained.

I'm sorry that you find the situation frustrating.
The "bar," however low you may think it is, is a barrier to enrollment for OW recreational divers who have no interest in tech diving yet would like to learn how to service their HOG regs. That barrier should not exist, in my opinion.

The ONLY reason that we didn't open it up to every recreational diver is that we felt most recreational divers don't want to service their gear and those that do will easily figure out how to get on the course.

Clearly, there are a number of recreational divers who want to service their gear.
Based on the stated prerequisites for the course, a recreational diver would have to earn some sort of tech cert in order to take the reg repair class. It's rather telling that at least one recreational diver in this thread has talked about taking a tech class for the primary reason of gaining the right to enroll in a HOG reg repair class.

If you are hinting at the possibility of allowing a recreational diver with no tech certs to take the class, perhaps you (or whoever is publicizing the class) should just mention that "exceptions to the tech cert prerequisite are at the discretion of the instructor" or words to that effect. I think this would be a reasonable compromise.

BTW, when will a freely downloadable (PDF?) step-by-step HOG reg repair manual (featuring photos, detailed directions, torque specs, helpful hints, troubleshooting instructions, exploded parts diagram, etc.) become available?

 

[cerich]

My comments after yours in RED

@cerich: The provision for a class prerequisite certainly implies that the knowledge gained from the prerequisite is critical for successfully taking the class. Nope, not at all. I am 100% sure that many people with less than the prerequisites can take and pass a course, any subject. In many parts of the world you know you don't need a undergrad degree to enter med school? Just med school makes you a doc. Just saying.
At least that's how it works in the academic world. Hmmm, good thing I'm not in that world.

I'm sorry that you find the situation frustrating. Yeah...well
The "bar," however low you may think it is, is a barrier to enrollment for OW recreational divers who have no interest in tech diving yet would like to learn how to service their HOG regs. How many of thse are there, really? And off those how many have never taken a nitrox class? If you've taken a nitrox class from a strictly recreational basis I am certain (having discussed this with the new instructors for the TDI HOG Specialty) that a quick and easy crossover to a TDI Nitrox card can easily be accomplished.

Clearly, there are a number of recreational divers who want to service their gear.
Based on the stated prerequisites for the course, a recreational diver would have to earn some sort of tech cert in order to take the reg repair class.

If you are hinting at the possibility of allowing a recreational diver with no tech certs to take the class, perhaps you (or whoever is publicizing the class) should just mention that "exceptions to the tech cert prerequisite are at the discretion of the instructor" or words to that effect. I think this would be a reasonable compromise.

BTW, when will a freely downloadable (PDF?) step-by-step HOG reg repair manual (featuring photos, detailed directions, torque specs, helpful hints, troubleshooting instructions, exploded parts diagram, etc.) become available?

So you propose I go from encouraging people to take training to service their kit to encouraging them to not take training? Not gonna happen. Enough trained people that repair regs as part of their living screw up, I want to make comprehensive, quality training that goes beyond most manufs. service clinics for content, knowledge and ability. That said there is no reason that the course couldn't be taught online and maybe someday it will be.

 

[Pullmyfinger]

This thread caught my eye....but I don't have time to read through 10 pages of it.
What I got from the parts I did read are that HOG offers a class of servicing their regulators to divers that are not affiliated with a dive shop.
Instead of this requirement they make it a requirement to have a tech diving certification.

In addition to this requirement they want you to have Regulator Savvy as the course book, the Airspeed press book can also be used it seems.
They also want you to have your own tools, to include an inline adjustment tool.

The "arguements" that seem to be posted here are:

1.) I don't have a tech certification, and since it's not directly related to servicing a regulator.....this requirement isn't fair.


2.) I already know how to service a regulator without an inline adjustment tool. Since I'm already a guru, they should lift this requirement and let me take the course.

3.) I don't own either of those books, but I still know what I'm doing. They should still let me take their class.

It seems to me that rather than ONLY teaching THEIR class to dive shop employees, they decided to make it available to the public. THEY decided to have a filter of some sort. All things considered, a tech certification doesn't seem unreasonable at all. What are they supposed to do....announce that if you just write
"I know what I'm doing" on a cocktail napkin and sign your name...that'll be good enough?
THEY decided to impose something that would serve as some sort of filter. If one doesn't agree with this....they could always petition Scubapro, Aqualung, Atomic, and others to let them take their service classes.....
......I think the angle of "If you don't let me take your class, you are going to alienate me....and I won't buy your regs......I'll tell everyone on the internet not to either.".....is going to fall on deaf ears, as it should.

Get the required book(s), get the required tools, get the required prerequisites....or get another company to let you take THEIR classes.

At least HOG has made their classes more accessible that the other companies.......their requirements are pretty easy to meet.

-Mitch

 

[Pullmyfinger]

@cerich: Statment of a class prerequisite certainly implies that the knowledge gained from the prerequisite is critical for successfully taking the class. At least that's how it works in the academic world.

I'm sorry that you find the situation frustrating.
The "bar," however low you may think it is, is a barrier to enrollment for OW recreational divers who have no interest in tech diving yet would like to learn how to service their HOG regs. That barrier should not exist, in my opinion.

Clearly, there are a number of recreational divers who want to service their gear.
Based on the stated prerequisites for the course, a recreational diver would have to earn some sort of tech cert in order to take the reg repair class. It's rather telling that at least one recreational diver in this thread has talked about taking a tech class for the primary reason of gaining the right to enroll in a HOG reg repair class.

If you are hinting at the possibility of allowing a recreational diver with no tech certs to take the class, perhaps you (or whoever is publicizing the class) should just mention that "exceptions to the tech cert prerequisite are at the discretion of the instructor" or words to that effect. I think this would be a reasonable compromise.

BTW, when will a freely downloadable (PDF?) step-by-step HOG reg repair manual (featuring photos, detailed directions, torque specs, helpful hints, troubleshooting instructions, exploded parts diagram, etc.) become available?

Having an expectation of freely downloadable course material???
How does that work out in "the academic world"?

It would only be reasonable to expect downloadable course material AFTER actually paying for the course, would it not?
Or is my view unreasonable.

 

[gcarter]

My comments after yours in RED

Originally Posted by Bubbletrubble@cerich: The provision for a class prerequisite certainly implies that the knowledge gained from the prerequisite is critical for successfully taking the class.
At least that's how it works in the academic world.

I'm sorry that you find the situation frustrating. Yeah...well
The "bar," however low you may think it is, is a barrier to enrollment for OW recreational divers who have no interest in tech diving yet would like to learn how to service their HOG regs. How many of thse are there, really? And off those how many have never taken a nitrox class? If you've taken a nitrox class from a strictly recreational basis I am certain (having discussed this with the new instructors for the TDI HOG Specialty) that a quick and easy crossover to a TDI Nitrox card can easily be accomplished.

Clearly, there are a number of recreational divers who want to service their gear.
Based on the stated prerequisites for the course, a recreational diver would have to earn some sort of tech cert in order to take the reg repair class.

If you are hinting at the possibility of allowing a recreational diver with no tech certs to take the class, perhaps you (or whoever is publicizing the class) should just mention that "exceptions to the tech cert prerequisite are at the discretion of the instructor" or words to that effect. I think this would be a reasonable compromise.

BTW, when will a freely downloadable (PDF?) step-by-step HOG reg repair manual (featuring photos, detailed directions, torque specs, helpful hints, troubleshooting instructions, exploded parts diagram, etc.) become available?

So you propose I go from encouraging people to take training to service their kit to encouraging them to not take training? Not gonna happen. Enough trained people that repair regs as part of their living screw up, I want to make comprehensive, quality training that goes beyond most manufs. service clinics for content, knowledge and ability. That said there is no reason that the course couldn't be taught online and maybe someday it will be.

My 2c, YMMV.

A target market has been determined, and has no problem accessing the training. However arbitrary the means for accomplishing the boundaries may appear, the company has met its market.

Another market clamors to be served. The company, for whatever reason, is not ready to go there (yet?). Your perogative.

Opportunity missed, though?

To be clear, this is a solicitation, not a criticism.

The fact that someone would a) pay for the course and b) invest in the tools and equipment is a self selection. Silly gits with no mechanical aptitude are unlikely to apply. Suggestions have been made for a pre-screening selection, could be on the theory for example.

Myself, age 52, fairly new diver, love it, not enough to ever "go tech" if you asked me right now. Spent my early years as a mechanic. Good mechanical aptitude. Have a masters degree. Good academic aptitude. I would love to do my own regs, for the personal satisfaction as much as anything. When I first saw equipment specialist as a PADI specialty, I thought great! Then I found out it wasn't anything "real". I believe in being self sufficient.

I am part of a (I suspect not insignificant) market too. While I respect what you have done to buck the industry, I would love to see you buck it even more.

 

[Bubbletrubble]

@cerich: Thank you for your response.

The provision for a class prerequisite certainly implies that the knowledge gained from the prerequisite is critical for successfully taking the class.

Nope, not at all. I am 100% sure that many people with less than the prerequisites can take and pass a course, any subject. In many parts of the world you know you don't need a undergrad degree to enter med school? Just med school makes you a doc. Just saying.

Then we disagree on the purpose of a prerequisite.

Some people might be surprised to learn that, even in the U.S., there are some private medical schools which do not require an undergraduate degree for admission. As recently as 10 years ago, Johns Hopkins was one of those med schools, so it's not just the crappy med schools we're talking about here. (FYI, there are combo bachelor's degree/MD programs that exist, so technically an undergrad degree is not required for entry into an MD-granting program.) That being said, med school admissions committees are certainly interested in an applicant's performance in college-level courses covering the pre-med requirements (Bio, Physics, Math, Chem, Organic Chem) as well as the liberal arts. How a student performs in those undergrad courses is a predictor of how successful the student will be when challenged with the med school curriculum. FWIW, taking undergrad coursework in the natural sciences (Bio, Biochemistry, Bioorganic Chem) typically makes the first year of med school much easier for the student. While it's true that a successful med school applicant can hold an undergrad degree in a humanities discipline, for the vast majority of U.S. med schools (those accepting applications through AMCAS), that student must have fulfilled the aforementioned pre-med requirements somewhere, e.g., other undergrad coursework, formal post-baccalaureate program, Ph.D. program, etc. The point I'm making here is that undergrad coursework is directly relevant to the med school admissions process.

But we're not really interested in talking about med school admissions prerequisites and medical degrees, are we?
At issue is the tech cert prerequisite for the HOG reg repair class...

The "bar," however low you may think it is, is a barrier to enrollment for OW recreational divers who have no interest in tech diving yet would like to learn how to service their HOG regs.

How many of thse are there, really? And off those how many have never taken a nitrox class? If you've taken a nitrox class from a strictly recreational basis I am certain (having discussed this with the new instructors for the TDI HOG Specialty) that a quick and easy crossover to a TDI Nitrox card can easily be accomplished.

I took a PADI recreational nitrox class years ago. Please explain why I should do a crossover for the TDI nitrox card in order to take a class on servicing scuba regulators.
I have no interest at all in taking a TDI nitrox course (crossover or otherwise), much less paying for a card that's of no use to me.
I will not be learning anything in that class that will enhance my understanding of how scuba regs function.

So you propose I go from encouraging people to take training to service their kit to encouraging them to not take training? Not gonna happen. Enough trained people that repair regs as part of their living screw up, I want to make comprehensive, quality training that goes beyond most manufs. service clinics for content, knowledge and ability. That said there is no reason that the course couldn't be taught online and maybe someday it will be.

Putting in place a "higher bar" for reg servicing is a laudable goal. It should not mean creating irrelevant class prerequisites.

I propose that you establish thoughtful and relevant prerequisites for your HOG reg repair class. Remove the tech cert prerequisite. Replace it with a prerequisite that, at least nominally, sets up the student for success in the reg repair class. If you wanted to, you could have all the students take a pre-test at the beginning of class to assess their knowledge of reg function theory. The Scuba Regulator Savvy book could serve as the source for the tested material. Such a pre-test would ensure that students read the book before class. Reading the Scuba Regulator Savvy book before class would be an example of a relevant prerequisite.

People should take all the other scuba training they want. That's up to them. It shouldn't be tied to a silly reg repair servicing course.

When I asked about the step-by-step reg repair manual, I brought it up as something entirely separate from an online course.
Dive Rite and Atomic Aquatics currently offer freely downloadable reg repair manuals for their regs. Unfettered access to such a manual would be extremely helpful for HOG reg owners.

An online course is a very good idea. At present, the HOG reg repair courses aren't being taught in very many locations and aren't being held too often. An online course would reach HOG reg owners in virtually any part of the world, even a Marine Corps base in Japan.

 

[aquaregia]

I sort of wanted to chime in and mention that I'm finding this discussion valuable. I purchased several sets of HOG regs purely because of the self-service aspect. Although I love diving my ScubaPros, I hate feeling like the ScubaProlice are after me for the reckless crime of touching my life support devices.

My background's in engineering (although not in a directly relevant field), and I intend to (attempt to) acquire a tech certification in the near future, so I don't really have a dog in this game. Just appreciating the discussion and viewpoints.