History of Diver Training

[Diver0001]

Wow Ro, YOU AGREE WITH ME!

I just don't understand why you insist on equating training students for emergency situations to bullying.

Come on, you're better than this, man. The only assertion I'm making here is that equating "fun" to substandard training is absurd.

I simply see no reason to bully someone in order to teach them any of the emergency procedures in a scuba course. I also see no reason why the instructor would need to become heavy handed with students and take the fun out of learning these skills in order to convince themselves that the skill had been sufficiently learned.

I generally think that being heavy handed is more about the instructor's inability to be even handed than it is about any kind of teaching technique.

That's not to say that there aren't times when you really need to make a point. Last year I had a student who was having a lot of trouble remembering to check the SPG and I asked them at one point, "how long do you want to live?" Some times you need to wake them up, but as a rule, I think being heavy handed is normally ineffective.

R..

 

[Diver0001]

The ocean, on the other hand, is not quite as predictable.

LOL..... Well... in Holland I definitely feel a lot safer in the ocean than on the freeway....

R..

 

[Scott L]

We do everything possible to make driving as predictable an activity as possible, even so we fail and the time I spent at a performance driving school as a teenager prevented, on at least several occasions, significant property damage and likely physical damage even though I was well within the rules of the road. The ocean, on the other hand, is not quite as predictable.

I am sure you have already indicated many times before but how many classroom hours, pool work and open water dives should be the norm for a proper open water certification? Since I have little memory of my OW class in 1983 it must have been brief...

 

[Slamfire]

I tend to agree, but I am not sure the evidence points directly to the agency or to the individual. I would have to look at the stats, and I am sure someone will post them (especially if I am wrong:mooner but I do not think the majority of accidents are happening to freshly carded divers. I am not sure where a resonable place to draw the blame line is when you start getting 1 or more years removed from your class...

I think it is more about taking ownership more than assigning blame. It is very easy to fall into the fallacy that there is one single cause for events like this, when in reality they are always a combination of multiple factors.

What I would say to students is this: There are very real risks in this sport. It is NOT safer than bowling. If you're not on top of the game you can easily get bent, burst a lung, become a paraplegic or even die. It is in your best interest to take control and make sure you bring your A-Game. It is NOT in your best interest to relinquish that control to an instructor or an agency. After all, they are not likely there with you taking the risks when you dive. It's your life and it's your health. For your sake, go beyond the instructor and the agency when you get the skills and training that are your TRUE life support system. It's your life - take ownership.

 

[DCBC]

Thankfully most people don't deal in black and white.

You're saying that training and fun are mutually exclusive..... either one is training or one is having fun.... That's completely absurd, imo.

That kind of black and white thinking may be common in certain circles but personally, if my instructor wasn't willing or able to make my training both educational AND enjoyable, then I would look elsewhere. There are, namely, many instructors who combine both and run effective classes. If a given instructor isn't able then that's sad and if they aren't willing then they're doing it for their own egos (if you ask me) and not for their student's best interest..... similar to instructors who feel proud when students fail so they can brag about how tough they are....

it seems to me that you're equating having fun with things being too easy....

But as you keep on pointing out, we have very different approaches to things.

R..

Rod, I might be wrong, but I would guess that you have never undergone any serious training that would prepare you for a real emergency, or you would not say what you're saying. I understand that you teach recreational diving in a way that most instructors do; you're in the majority. I on the other hand teach from a different perspective.

I am a commercial and ex-military diver who has made my living over the past 40 years diving. Regardless we each take our experiences into consideration and teach our students what they need to know with the understanding of our particular perspective. Our experiences to say the least are different. What I can't stomach is you thinking you can surmise where I'm coming from, as you have absolutely NO idea!

Stop giving me the crap about instructor ego, black and white, forgetting what fun is, bragging about how tough I am, heavy handed, ineffective training, or whatever other foolishness you are envisioning. You're off-base and are embarrassing yourself.

I don't train people to dive to look at the pretty fish. I don't try to encourage 60 year old ladies to choose scuba over quilting (although there is nothing the matter with that). I train divers who are serious about moving forward and taking on new challenges like tech diving, diving commercially, or with the military. I teach on a military base. Don't compare your course with mine. They are different beasts.

 

[Diver0001]

Rod, I might be wrong, but I would guess that you have never undergone any serious training that would prepare you for a real emergency, or you would not say what you're saying.

yeah, Wayne. Nothing bad has ever happened to me, I wouldn't know a real emergency if it hit me in the head and nothing I've ever done in my life makes me enough of a cyber super-hero to be able to deal with whatever fantasy keeps you awake at night.

I understand that you teach recreational diving in a way that most instructors do; you're in the majority. I on the other hand teach from a different perspective.

I teach recreational diving but giving the amazing disrespect you show for "most" recreational divers and instructors I can only take this as a loaded statement. I don't thnk you know anything about me. you're so busy pushing your POV most of the time that you never listen.

Like this: I've told you before, my name is ROB. But you can't even seem to remember that. How the heck are you supposed to remember anything else I say when you mind is so closed?

What I can't stomach is you thinking you can surmise where I'm coming from, as you have absolutely NO idea!

Well that makes two of us but I know one thing. I know black and white thinking when I see it and I'm quite sure about what I said before. I'm sorry you found it hard to hear but that's how you come across, at least to me.

You're funny this way. Whenever you think you're starting to lose ground in a debate you first become belligerent and then you play the victim card. Want a prediction about how this thread is going to go from here?

Stop giving me the crap about instructor ego, black and white, forgetting what fun is, bragging about how tough I am, heavy handed, ineffective training, or whatever other foolishness you are envisioning. You're off-base and are embarrassing yourself.

That's my opinion. I'm sorry you don't like it. But like you often say, we don't see many things eye to eye.

I train divers who are serious about moving forward and taking on new challenges like tech diving, diving commercially, or with the military. I teach on a military base. Don't compare your course with mine. They are different beasts.

I see, so all this time that you've been on scubaboard pretending to be teaching recreational divers and now we find out that you teach on a military base for people who want to get into commercial and military diving.

I don't know how many discussions we've had and it's never been clear to me that you don't teach recreational diving at all, despite your many claims to the contrary.

I don't know the first thing about teaching commercial and military divers so I'm quite happy if you want to go on and on about how you do that. But what you do is go on and on about how what YOU do is what EVERYONE should do... but you don't even teach for the same audience. For month's you've been starting one after the other anti-PADI (or at least anti recreational) POV warrior thread and it's not even your focus?

What is WRONG with you, man? Why didn't you just come clean to start with so people would KNOW you were comparing apples to oranges the whole time?

R..

 

[Slamfire]

 

[TSandM]

I don't think fun and good training are incompatible at all. I've worked with students in the pool, showing them techniques for buoyancy control, and they listen and watch attentively, and then they play with the ideas and when things start to click, their faces light up and they surface laughing and happy.

I've even done technical training where all kinds of stuff got thrown at us, and we dealt with one thing after another, and came out laughing at what we got right and what we didn't. And we learned.

A lot of it is the instructor's attitude. If you think that learning only takes place when people are humorless and intense, you'll teach that way. I have always believed that most people enjoy learning and get pleasure from mastering ideas and techniques, so I've always structured my teaching of anything to try to make it fun. And I'm talking about teaching medical students and surgeons-in-training, so we're talking stuff that's at least as important and potentially dangerous as diving.

If students feel a positive environment, they'll find paying attention easy and they'll be willing to try for you, and if you've been effective as an instructor, they'll get enough success to remain enthusiastic and motivated. If your students are discouraged and unhappy or demoralized, either your instruction or your teaching milieu has failed.

 

[DCBC]

I’ve never suggested that an instructor shouldn’t make his class enjoyable. I do however take exception to anyone jumping to conclusions that because my “class focus” is on “education” rather than “having fun,” that my classes automatically translate to dull; they're not. Certainly there are some areas in-which people have hesitation and occasionally fear, but with reassurance they pull through and are pleased with their accomplishments.

I believe that not all recreational diving instructors teach in the same way; nor do they teach exactly the same content. There is a difference between agencies and this is even more evident with some agencies that encourage their instructors to enhance their programs with additional content. I am one such instructor.

Some instructors (perhaps because of their geographic location) find themselves teaching people to enjoy clear warm water in a less hazardous environment. Others work for a LDS that has a philosophy of cranking out as many divers in as short a period of time as possible. Others work in a different environment. Some Instructors like Thal, Walter, Jim and I offer a more inclusive program, others don’t.

Regardless of the length of the SCUBA course, how in-depth, or brief it may be, we all are recreational diving instructors. Regardless of if our students are disabled, 60 year old grandmothers or military personnel. We hand out similar certifications.

Each ‘brand’ of recreational training is best evaluated by the students who take that program and not passive observers that feel that they know the way things are because of some mystical insight. If someone chooses a 3 day course over a longer one, great! That’s up to them. If they chose a program that is run in a military manner and that’s what they want, great! Who is to say otherwise?

Chastising anyone’s teaching style is hardly beneficial, especially when they are not knowledgeable enough about the training methods used to even make an informed opinion. We each teach recreational diving differently and quite likely to different audiences. The water environment in-which we teach is also different.

Suffice it to say that we each come from different diving backgrounds and have had different experiences. My personal experiences (like everyone else), influence what and how I teach my students.

 

[Diver0001]

There is a difference between agencies and this is even more evident with some agencies that encourage their instructors to enhance their programs with additional content. I am one such instructor.

True enough. Some agencies allow instructors more room to manoeuvre than others. The agency I teach for allows (and expects) me to adjust course content to suit local conditions. Yours allows you do pretty much whatever you want.

Some Instructors like Thal, Walter, Jim and I offer a more inclusive program, others don’t.

I'm not sure those are the best examples. Thal teaches (future) scientific divers at a university (ie, not recreational), Jim has only ever taught a handful of classes but talks a good game and has the drive and potential to become a great instructor, imo. Walter, I can't judge but I have the impression is a highly effective instructor and would be regardless of which agency he taught for and you teach future commercial and military divers.

Regardless of the length of the SCUBA course, how in-depth, or brief it may be, we all are recreational diving instructors. Regardless of if our students are disabled, 60 year old grandmothers or military personnel. We hand out similar certifications.

Each ‘brand’ of recreational training is best evaluated by the students who take that program and not passive observers that feel that they know the way things are because of some mystical insight. If someone chooses a 3 day course over a longer one, great! That’s up to them. If they chose a program that is run in a military manner and that’s what they want, great! Who is to say otherwise?

Chastising anyone’s teaching style is hardly beneficial, especially when they are not knowledgeable enough about the training methods used to even make an informed opinion. We each teach recreational diving differently and quite likely to different audiences. The water environment in-which we teach is also different.

Well.. now if we could just get you to practice what you're preaching here then we'd soon be completely free of the POV warrior bitching. I hope you really believe that because I really believe it too.

I for one don't have any problem at all about how you say you teach your classes. I'm sure everyone could learn something from it (especially now that you've laid out your course context clearly for us) and I actually do agree with some of the criticisms. But when it gets to the point that all a person does is bitch about other people not doing things like they do, then it gets to be a bit much.

R..