History of Diver Training

[Kingpatzer]

What actually is the problem with elitism? Some people are better than others. Some people are more elite. What is wrong with saying that? Why should one have to pretend to be mediocre when they are not just so the mediocre people feel ok? Why should people have to want what the majority is happy with? Instead they get criticised for expecting and wanting more... I don't get it.

There's nothing wrong with recognizing that someone is better than others at something. There's nothing wrong with being proud of one's own achievements. There is something wrong with using one's own achievements as the basis to denigrate others.

It is wrong for me to presume that because I have an advanced education that someone who is happy without such an education is somehow of less value than me. I have a superior education around some particular topics; but, all that means is that I happened to have wanted and obtained that education. It doesn't mean I have some right to the library that should be denied to those who haven't gone to college.

The whole discussion is ultimately silly. No one needs a certification to dive. It makes it easier, but it won't stop anyone who wants to dive.

 

[MXGratefulDiver]

No one needs a certification to dive. It makes it easier, but it won't stop anyone who wants to dive.

The primary benefit to certification isn't so much to regulate what divers need to learn ... it's to keep the government from regulating what divers need to learn.

That's something I'm very much in favor of.

To a previous point ... I have always found it odd that in order to rent scuba gear you need a C-card ... but in order to purchase that same gear all you need is a VISA card ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

 

[gypsyjim]

in order to rent scuba gear you need a C-card ... but in order to purchase that same gear all you need is a VISA card ...

... Bob (Grateful Diver)

Good point. Don't recall seeing anyone ask for a C card for a air fill in a long time, either.

 

[DCBC]

Although there is no law against diving without a C-Card, the fact remains that if an instructor decides to teach someone how to dive, they have to meet the 'standard of care' for doing so. Although the standards of various agencies are one method of determining if the standard of care has been met, in the event of a court case, this is not the only measure that the instructor must meet. Regardless of the standards, liability is determined by what you do and what you fail to do. The ultimate test is what is held to be reasonable under the circumstances having full regard for the environment in-which the training takes place.

 

[Sas]

There's nothing wrong with recognizing that someone is better than others at something. There's nothing wrong with being proud of one's own achievements. There is something wrong with using one's own achievements as the basis to denigrate others.

Just talking about one's achievements without any comparison to others though is often interpreted as denigrating others or just being arrogant. There is a huge level of anti-intellectualism in society imho and it sucks.

It is wrong for me to presume that because I have an advanced education that someone who is happy without such an education is somehow of less value than me. I have a superior education around some particular topics; but, all that means is that I happened to have wanted and obtained that education. It doesn't mean I have some right to the library that should be denied to those who haven't gone to college.

I'm not really talking about that. I'm talking about the fact that if you are good at something, well much better than other people or want something more than most people you can't talk about it honestly because it's seen as elitism.

 

[Walter]

I took OW from NAUI 1982 that is as far as I can go back,
the difference between then and now is:

You learned to dive after the meat was taken out of many programs.

I did it in a horse collar because I could not afford a BC

A horse collar is a type of BC.

Just getting tired of the same old rhetoric putting people down.

I missed that, care to provide a reference?

Ok, that's my entire life so far again... so far enough away I can relax for now

Relax. It's a looonnnnggg way from now for you. It seems like I was 25 just last week. I'll be 54 next month. Don't say you weren't warned.

What actually is the problem with elitism? Some people are better than others. Some people are more elite. What is wrong with saying that? Why should one have to pretend to be mediocre when they are not just so the mediocre people feel ok? Why should people have to want what the majority is happy with? Instead they get criticised for expecting and wanting more... I don't get it.

Yes, some are better than others in one way or another. There's nothing wrong with that. The "I'm better than you, so you are worthless" attitude is elitism. People with that attitude are not people with whom I care to associate. On the other hand, I've not seen that attitude here.

 

[drbill]

Really depends on how you assess the two. If you are asking whether a newly certified OW student is better trained now than say in the 60s when I certified, I'd say definitely NO. Our classes (Los Angeles County program) were very intensive, three week courses to get OW certified. If you are talking about taking equivalent material, requiring several classes beyond OW in most of today's training programs, I'd say it depends quite a bit on the agency and the individual instructor.

Although I'd been diving for 8 years before I got certified, I was fortunate to have one of the SoCal legends (Ron Merker) as my instructor. He definitely taught me well.

 

[mdb]

drbill:

You are definitely right about Ron Merker, with his great store and LA COUNTY attitude.

I remember when I was a junior birdman at the old Healthways and presenting Ron with a Gold plated Healthways reg as the LA COUNTY diver of the year-circa 1973

 

[Cave Diver]

It's not a matter of how many years since your first dive, its a combination of how many years since your first dive, how many dives total, and how many different sorts of experiences.

 

[Slamfire]

Some people have an ideal mix of talent, aptitude and motivation and could probably learn how to dive perfectly well with no instructor at all. In fact, I think you could make yourself look like a real super-hero by just screening your students and only teaching ones like this. They'd make the biggest boob look good. In fact, there would appear to be at least one agency playing this game already.

Most of the "best" universities are VERY selective on only admitting the best talent -- or the ones with a lot of coin. They are still tagged as the best universities.

It's commonly said around SB that, "it's not the agency, it's the instructor." I would say that it's not the instructor, it's the student. In this sense, the teacher doesn't teach, it is the student that learns. The teacher is just one more instrument of learning, just as experimentation, reference materials, research, etc. are also instruments of learning. Of course you have different degrees of quality among learning instruments, but the ultimate owner of the newly acquired education will be the student -- so the burden of actually taking effective and full ownership of such education consequently falls on the student.

I see what you mean about the merits of only instructing talented students and then harvesting a reputation of being a great instructor. But then again, instructing students that have a gross lack of talent or maybe even have some kind of disability is a whole different animal. Instructors that do this are not necessarily better or worse instructors. They are just doing a different kind of instruction.