Hiding your certification level

[Jim Lapenta]

As with John showing the instructor card can also keep me from having to buddy up with someone if I choose to dive solo, has gotten me discounts when I tell them I'd also be interested in referring my students to them (money talks and giving me a break that means I may send others to them for years to come is worth it), and may lead to other work for me. I received an email inquiring about instruction from someone in New York who saw a link to my website on one of the Keys operators sites! I have a policy of providing links to other's sites in exchange for one on theirs. It does not have to be a full page ad or even banner.

When inquiring about future trips I;ve gotten travel agent/dive shop discounts on lodging, dives, etc, I show the card and tell them I'm on vacation and if they are really stuck am willing to help out but there needs to be a quid pro quo. I'll watch over these few people but my dives are free right? If not then please don't ask me to do it. If someone on a boat asks for advice I'm careful of what I say and how I say it. I may even tell them to ask the DM. I may be new to the site as well, and if you ask me if it's easy, advanced, etc and I tell you and you get hurt who are you going to blame? Certainly not yourself because many refuse to take responsibility for their actions as evidenced by alot of questions here on SB. I'll check your air IF YOU ASK ME TO (don't expect it otherwise), help with a gear issue- again if asked, and other minor issues. If you expect me to actually do something that could be construed as instruction or the op expects it someone is going to compensate me for that and it won;t be cheap. I'm on vacation- interrupting that means $$$ to me and consequently to the other party.

 

[Shasta_man]

Very interesting and educational discussion. When employed positively, the breadth of education here is so enlightening.

That aside...

And then when the OP said they were a doctor TOO...they're going to make you liable somehow!

 

[boulderjohn]

I am sorry but I am confused. You asked why not to offer up your instructor card, and I told you that you will save yourself from giving away free advise to people while you are on vacation. If they want help with gear or trim or other help with diving they should pay you and take a class from you. Why be bothered with the questions.

I know that I get asked for advice from people all the time when they find out that I am a lawyer, I would think that it would be just as bad if not worse for someone else on a dive boat who works in the dive industry.

I don't know if you read the entire thread, but in this (and another thread on this topic going on at the same time), it has been pretty well established that the kind of thing you are fearing here is very rare. First of all, we are not talking about making a general announcement to the entire boat about your credentials. We are talking about showing a card when you sign up for the dive. It is between you and the operator who takes your information. That operator wants you to have good time, return, and tell others about the operation,. He or she is far, far, far more likely to give special treatment then to tick you off by asking you to do menial chores. Do you really think the operator is going to say, "Look, those people over there are having trouble with their equipment. I can't be bothered myself. You go help them."

I have shown a professional card on all vacations for years, and have never had anything remotely like that happen. I have never been asked to buddy with a beginning diver because of my advanced skills, either.

Jim mentioned some of the benefits he has received. Here is what happened on my last two vacation trips, in reverse order.

I dived in Hawaii in May, on two islands and with four different operators (for various reasons). In each case, the people who were diving that day were split into groups according to perceived ability. I, of course, was always put with the most advanced group. On one dive someone joked that everyone in the group had more dives than the DM assigned to lead it. The DM knew it, and he pretty much hung back and let us do our own dives. If I had shown only an OW card, I would have been assigned to the beginner group in each case and been led in a tight pack on a beginning dive.

I was in Cozumel in March. In Cozumel, the larger operators also divide groups by perceived ability whenever possible. I signed up and headed for my hotel. The next morning I was on the dock at the assigned time to be picked up, and the boat arrived with only a couple of people on it. When you dive in Cozumel, they generally pick you up and then ask everybody where they want to go for the first dive. On this occasion, the people on the boat had already decided they wanted to go to Maracaibo, one of the island's least dived destinations because of its difficulty level and its remoteness. They assumed I would want to go, and I certainly did. If I had shown my OW card, I would have been on a boat full of beginners looking for a beginning dive. Maybe after a few days they would have picked out that I was better. On this trip, I did nothing but the most exciting dives on the island, and I loved every day of it.

So, what you are saying is that because you fear that you might have to show someone how to set up their gear, something that might happen on 2% of the dives you do, you will pass up the 98% possibility that you will instead get the best dives and the best groups. You are saying in effect, "When I am on vacation I want to be treated like a beginner and get beginning level dives because there is a remote chance I might have to show someone how to set up their gear."

OK, then, that's your choice.

 

[luckydays]

I did read the entire thread. It seemed to me that the basis of this thread was to analize Instructor/DM liability and/or concerns of being buddies with newbs on a dive boat if they were keep the cert cards on the DL.

I am not an instructor nor a DM for that matter. I am just a regular diver who just likes to have a good time. I don't have the time right now to be dedicated to my hobby that way. However, I am grateful that many of you guys have gone beyond the hobby stage otherwise getting certified and diving regularly would not be as available as it currently is.

So what is the benefit of not showing your instructor card in comparison to the benefits of showing it?

You asked for a reason not to serve up the card on a charter and I gave you one. I did not say there were no advantages to showing the card but offered a reason why you would not want to. I am surprised that an instructor would not get asked tons questions by other divers about diving and all that it entails. Glad to hear that does not happen when you guys are diving. I did not even imagine that there would be a benefit to showing the cards while on vacation. I would have never guessed that you would get discounts on charters or even a chance to buy a dive op. I guess I assumed that if you were on vacation (not a LDS dive trip) you would be treated as any other diver who was qualified to dive that perticular dive.

If I paid for a charter that was going to a site and it was within my training, skill level, and compatable with my gear config, you can bet your bottom dollar I will be on that site, instructor card or no. If I was told that I am limited to diving the beginner sites, then I will ask for a refund since that is not what I paid for and go find another charter who will take me out there. Again to dive sites that are within my training and skill level.

Dont take this the wrong way but the standards that are out there in some agencies to get instructor or DM don't seem all the stringent and just take time, practice and money. I don't see how having an instructor card could prove that anyone is a qualified diver to do anything other than the most basic dives. An instructor card to me means that you are capable of teaching OW divers in less than 40 feet of water how to do a particular skill required to complete that course. Who is to say that any random instructor on a dive charter is not on his first real dive vacation and only teaches at the local mud pit in the midwest. He or she could only dive this same site week after week but yet have thousands of dives. Due to the low pay for instructors it took that person years to save up enough money to take a dive vacation. Just having an instructor card does not mean that you are capable of diving every site out there. Its your experience as a diver that makes you capable of diving a particular site and that same experience as a diver is what will make a person a great instructor. The card is just an approval to do the job. Just like a drivers license gets you qualified to drive, it does not make you a great driver.

 

[Web Monkey]

If I paid for a charter that was going to a site and it was within my training, skill level, and compatable with my gear config, you can bet your bottom dollar I will be on that site, instructor card or no. If I was told that I am limited to diving the beginner sites, then I will ask for a refund since that is not what I paid for and go find another charter who will take me out there. Again to dive sites that are within my training and skill level.

Dive OPs aren't required to take anybody anywhere, and FWIW, unless you chartered the boat for a specific location, they aren't required to issue refunds if you don't like the diving or the location.

Terry

 

[The Kraken]

In summation, I would say that one would not present a higher level of certification on a pleasure dive solely in order possibly to limit the perceived legal responsibility one could incur if there was an incident or death while buddied up with a diver of a lesser degree of competency.

I'm sure the "injured" parties would present the case that since you were an "instructor" or whatever, you should have exercised a higher degree of judgement or control during the dive.

Not a lawyer, never played one on TV, but sure as hell I wish I made the money . . .

the K

 

[luckydays]

Dive OPs aren't required to take anybody anywhere, and FWIW, unless you chartered the boat for a specific location, they aren't required to issue refunds if you don't like the diving or the location.

Terry

If I paid for a charter to go to the Spiegal Grove and was told that I was going to be taken to the City of Washington instead for any reason other than weather, I would demand a refund especially if I had the requisite skill to dive that site. If that charter was going to that site and I was left behind because I was not an instructor or some other professional diver then yes, I would get my money back. There would be no way they would want me in their shop or near their boat if I was not refunded my money for all the stink I would raise.

If I am taking a random charter with no destination until I get on the boat, that is my problem and I have to deal with what ever dive that is offered and would not expect to get a refund or anything.

If the weather held us back or forced us to go somewhere else, that is different.

If the Dive Op decided that I was not going to be on their boat that day for what ever reason, and they had my money, they would have no choice but to refund it as they did not earn the money as they did not complete their end of the bargin.

 

[The Kraken]

Contract law. That I do know about.

Performance contract, etc.

If one contracts to be taken to a specific dive site, then the operator must take the customer to that site UNLESS there are caveats in place that can allow him to do otherwise.

Getting on a cattle boat doesn't fall into that category.

the K

 

[The Kraken]

But we're getting off topic here . . .

. . . let's get back to hiding one's certifications.

Generally speaking, whenever we've gone on the "cattle boat" type of dives (and that's where I surmise that one is generally wanting to "hide" one's certification level", I have a tendency to show only the card of the required degree that will allow the operator of the dive to permit me to go on the dive.

Like others, I don't want to become an unintended baby sitter.

But, if there is a new diver on the boat looking for a buddy, then by God I'll dive with him or her.

It's much better to help than to scorn.

the K

 

[KY_BOB]

But we're getting off topic here . . .

. . . let's get back to hiding one's certifications.

Generally speaking, whenever we've gone on the "cattle boat" type of dives (and that's where I surmise that one is generally wanting to "hide" one's certification level", I have a tendency to show only the card of the required degree that will allow the operator of the dive to permit me to go on the dive.

Like others, I don't want to become an unintended baby sitter.

But, if there is a new diver on the boat looking for a buddy, then by God I'll dive with him or her.

It's much better to help than to scorn.

the K

Lets take this one step farther. I'm not an instructor. My highest C-card in "Master diver". That includes Stress and Rescue.

In the recent "accident" where the husband and wife were on a dive during their honeymoon and she died. I'm sure that you have all seen it on the news (at this point I don't want to get into guilt or innocence on his part).

NBC news stated that the was a "rescue diver" insinuating that he should be held to a higher standard than her and should have been able to help her.

I have a card that says that I'm certified in stress and rescue. I'm not a professional. Does this mean that I could be held to a higher standard than an OW only certified diver?

My AOW card shows deep, nitrox, night and nav. Would it be better to show only that instead of a master card that includes rescue?

Don't get me wrong, I have done a rescue at depth. (scary as hell) I would do it again in a second but does that hold me to a higher standard? I'm not pro (yet) but to me the question is, does a higher certification level hold you to a higher standard, legally? Maybe to the point that you should learn but not get certified in the specialties.

I would love Bruce's input on this.